log in or register to remove this ad

 

D&D 4E Effect of critical hits on two-weapon powers

Myrhdraak

Explorer
I was implementing some macro scripts for my 4th Edition game in MapTools. I am trying to calculate the critical damage for two-weapon powers the like "Whirling Rend" (Barbarian 1st Level At-Will Power). I could not find any guidance in the 4th Edition books that brought clarity to me, so I though I would reach out to the experts in this forum. The power read:

"Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and an enemy adjacent to you other than the target takes 1[W] damage (off-hand weapon). If you are raging, add your Dexterity modifier to both damage rolls."

  • So if the barbaian have two magic swords, would the magic item critical bonus (+1d6) be applied to both 1[W] damages, i.e. in total +2d6?
  • Should the magic item bonus to damage (+1) for each magical weapon be applied to each 1[W] damage, or only to the primary damage?
  • Would the critical maximum damage apply only to the primary weapon or to both?
  • The barbarian have Two-Weapon Fighting feat, resulting in +1 damage when wielding two weapons. Does this bonus get added to both weapons, resulting in a +2 bonus in total, or only on the primary weapon?

Anyone having a FAQ or other clarity on these questions?

/Myrhdraak
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Myrhdraak

Explorer
Very little 4th Edition support in these forums ;)
After negotiating with the Player's Union, we reached a decision - a middle ground. Player's Union normally only try to maximize their benefits, but we managed to come to turns in the end.
Ruling: The secondary attack damage from the off-hand weapon should be seen as an Effect, rather than a seperate attack. As it does not require an attack roll. Thus, the secondary damage is not maximized when the primary weapon make a critical. However, both primary and secondary damage roll is entitled to damage modifiers from race and feat bonuses; magic item bonuses; power bonuses; or untyped bonuses (according to PHB p.276)
 

Horwath

Hero
haven't played 4E in ages, but isn't it in 4E that you deal max damage on attack +whatever weapon magic bonuses are on crit?

If it's max weapon damage, then it's max weapon damage(both weapons).

Now, if off-hand attack was from separate attack, which it is not, then it would deal normal damage, unless that attack is a crit also.
 




Myrhdraak

Explorer
(no attack roll specific to it, then no crit effect but an auto hit [W] gets its other magic bonuses.)
My judgement as well. Have started to code Maptools macros for all the PCs powers. I think it could speed up combat even more as I don't have to do a lot of record keeping and checking up on power descriptions as mist of it is handled by the code.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
My judgement as well. Have started to code Maptools macros for all the PCs powers. I think it could speed up combat even more as I don't have to do a lot of record keeping and checking up on power descriptions as mist of it is handled by the code.
Have you seen MacroPoliceBox
 


This was an old chestnut in the before days of 4e rules questions, it came up a lot in various forms. I don't recall what WotC said at the time, but I don't agree that the damage from the second weapon is an 'effect'. It is reliant on HITTING, you don't get it if you miss! Thus it is damage which results from attacking and hitting something, and is thus maximized on a critical hit!

As to the question of whether or not it is a second instance of doing damage... What is the exact wording of the power? It doesn't call itself a multi-target power (IE there's no 'close burst' or something like that) so I don't think there is really a second instance of doing damage. Instead I think this is EXTRA DAMAGE that is part of the single damage instance, but applied to a different target, and thus it doesn't get any additional bonuses. In fact the damage is nominally just '1[W]', no modifiers of any kind, unless you are raging, which explicitly states that each target suffers DEX mod additional damage.

Based on that "if raging" clause, you certainly can argue that the power is worded as if there are two separate damages happening. It is really a toss up. I've given people things like crit max and other similar stuff, but not static damage bonuses that are not called for in the power block. It is impossible to say this is 'right' however.
 





Myrhdraak

Explorer
Let me know I am still a newbie on VTT and maptools etc seem to have steep learning curves.
I think I am on Version 3 of macro implementation of the powers.
Version 1: Some players started implementing the attack and damage rolls, etc. for their characters, but far from all. Each one had implemented it a little different
Version 2: I streamlined the implementation so it worked the same for all characters, mainly making the output look and feel like the 4th Edition power text. Making it easy for everyone to see and understand each others powers, and speeding up attack and damage rolls.
Version 3: More advanced in the sense that the code allow you to select enemies, it checks if you follow the letter of the wording of the power, i.e. making it easier on me as DM to remember each power and how they works (as they players are not always reading the powers as written). It allows two modes of play: online or live. In live mode you still role the dices and feed them into the macro that calculate all bonuses, etc. Visual effects of all spells being used and automatic setting of states on enemies, etc.
Version 4: I will now start looking at a Version 4 where I start to also implement the monsters and full full handling of tracking HP, damage, resistance, etc. making it fully automized to a much higher level. Hopefully speeding up play even more, and taking away a lot of the record keeping for me as a DM.
 

the Jester

Legend
Since that is all under a "Hit" heading, I'd say that the critical hit rules apply to all of it. Also, is there a power you could choose at the same level that's a 2[W] power? If so, I don't even see any justification for not applying the critical rules to this- the damage is pretty much the same, right?

All that said, I think the only 4e books I have here are monster and magic item books (me being at my girlfriend's house, where I spend half my time). So I don't have the resources available to see if there's a RAW answer on this.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
No, that one I was not aware of. Will take a look and see what I can borrow. Thanks for pointing me to it

/Myrhdraak
I think I am on Version 3 of macro implementation of the powers.
Version 1: Some players started implementing the attack and damage rolls, etc. for their characters, but far from all. Each one had implemented it a little different
Version 2: I streamlined the implementation so it worked the same for all characters, mainly making the output look and feel like the 4th Edition power text. Making it easy for everyone to see and understand each others powers, and speeding up attack and damage rolls.
Version 3: More advanced in the sense that the code allow you to select enemies, it checks if you follow the letter of the wording of the power, i.e. making it easier on me as DM to remember each power and how they works (as they players are not always reading the powers as written). It allows two modes of play: online or live. In live mode you still role the dices and feed them into the macro that calculate all bonuses, etc. Visual effects of all spells being used and automatic setting of states on enemies, etc.
Version 4: I will now start looking at a Version 4 where I start to also implement the monsters and full full handling of tracking HP, damage, resistance, etc. making it fully automized to a much higher level. Hopefully speeding up play even more, and taking away a lot of the record keeping for me as a DM.
interesting.. The Macro Police Box has some extensive import functionality on its list of features. I am wondering how much you will be able to exploit/copy it.
 

Myrhdraak

Explorer
Since that is all under a "Hit" heading, I'd say that the critical hit rules apply to all of it. Also, is there a power you could choose at the same level that's a 2[W] power? If so, I don't even see any justification for not applying the critical rules to this- the damage is pretty much the same, right?

All that said, I think the only 4e books I have here are monster and magic item books (me being at my girlfriend's house, where I spend half my time). So I don't have the resources available to see if there's a RAW answer on this.
It is a first level At-Will Power. If you have two +2 magic items, +2 dmg would be added to both primary and off-hand weapon as well as any feat bonus like two-weapon fighting. Max damage on both dmg rolls would feel over-powered on top of this.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It is a first level At-Will Power. If you have two +2 magic items, +2 dmg would be added to both primary and off-hand weapon as well as any feat bonus like two-weapon fighting. Max damage on both dmg rolls would feel over-powered on top of this.
if one wanted a fully per RaW or even RaI ...
ok I checked in with the Optimizer and rule experts I know.
They say it is formulated oddly... but the [W]s max and you get the crit effect on the one primary target but not on the other.

They say it looks like a Barbarian Power designed to avoid double tap but use two weapons. Double tap as in not triggering weapon hit properties and attack abilities for two attacks but using two weapons anyway (my translation LOL).
 

the Jester

Legend
It is a first level At-Will Power. If you have two +2 magic items, +2 dmg would be added to both primary and off-hand weapon as well as any feat bonus like two-weapon fighting. Max damage on both dmg rolls would feel over-powered on top of this.
Oh, I assumed it was at least an Encounter power. Hmm. Still, I'm not sure my answer is difficult; it's all still under Hit.
 

Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top