Effects lasting until the end of the encounter, w00t!

[Mirtek]

So, I guess we won't see PC fall to their death because of an ending "fly" spell or this kind of things.

Unless your pals are down and you are the last one standing (er, flying) and the remaining opponents just surrender to you. Thus the encounter ends with your victory but you just fall to your death because your fly spell ends

 

[VirgilCaine]

A> Buffs that last in rounds add up to a lot of crap to keep track of in a fight and
B> Buffs that last in minutes just make parties hurry through the dungeon to get the most use out of their limited spells.

You forgot buffs that last in hours.

 

[Mistwell]

The silliness of the rat-on-a-stick (or the blind kobold, or the bag of rats) serves to illustrate issues that *will* occur.

I am not understanding your position then. If you admit they are silly, and that DMs block silly loopholes like that, then why are you arguing they "*will*" occur? If they are silly, isn't that evidence that tends to indicate they will *not* occur, much like the bag of rats, rat on a stick, and blind kobold never actually occurred with regularity in 3.0 and 3.5, and was just a theoretical thought experiment that lived on the boards and not in actual games?

One issue is what occurs if the party rebuffs immediately every time their buffs drop?

You can only buff in an encounter I believe. Otherwise, if you buff, the duration immediately expires because you are not in an encounter.

If starting a new encounter drops encounter-duration buffs,

No, ending an encounter drops encounter-duration buffs. Not starting one.

you will have buffs lasting for seconds in one case, hours in others, and heated arguments over what counts as a new encounter.

I disagree. First, they won't last hours. Second, we've had encounter based rules in 3.5 for a year now, and I have not seen lots of people wringing their hands over the problem of when an encounter ends. An encounter ends when you drop out of initiative, and we've had initiative (and dropping out of it) for the entire game.

If buffs don't drop at the start of a new encounter, people will have their (per-encounter) buffs up all the time.

Buffs drop at the END of an encounter, not start.

If per-day buffs are powerful, people *will* stretch the definition of an encounter to keep them up. They will be able to find better excuses than blind kobolds, too.

I disagree. I have seen no evidence that people will stretch it, or any attempt to find a loophole. Nor have I seen any loophole that survives an encounter with the DM.

Time based durations, at least, are well defined and non-negotiable.

(note further that if the party is trying to escort an angry "prisoner" that they don't really want to harm, a princess who is trying to run away say, to choose something in genre, then you *do* have a fully legitimate "blind kobold" scenario... and the PCs may well choose to buff themselves so they can handle her better without causing permanent harm...)

Bah. When the princess tries to escape, you roll initiative and the encounter starts. When you are out of initiative, it's generally not an encounter.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm not sure that "duration = encounter" actually means "you have one casting EACH encounter".

Pretty sure that is what they mean actually. It's a term of art taken from the Book of Nine Swords. Per encounter abilities are one each encounter.

 

[Mirtek]

Per encounter abilities are one each encounter.

The thing is that they didn't say that buffs will become per encounter abilities. Only that a buff will last for the duration of the encounter once it has been cast.

It's not unlikely that quite a few of the more powerfull buffs will be per day abilities with their duration being one encounter.

 

[Lanefan]

Per encounter abilities are one each encounter.

::frustrated::

But what defines an encounter?!? And can I use a per-encounter ability when there's no "encounter" to be had but there's still a useful reason to do so?

Example: can I strength-buff so I can save time by carrying more treasure (and-or corpses) back to camp in one trip? Can I Con-buff to give me greater endurance for a day of running across the plains (e.g. Aragorn-Legolas-Gimli chasing Merry-Pippin) and if I can will it last all day?

The in-initiative/out-of-initiative definition does not cover nearly enough. Initiative is not rolled to climb a cliff or open a door, yet both can easily be seen as encounters.

Does the encounter end for everyone at the same time regardless of situation? Example: if I use a PEA (Per-Encounter Ability) at the start of a battle, then get pushed down a bank only to spend the rest of the battle and then some climbing back up (assume a trivially easy climb with no risk but it's a long way, thus takes some time), when does my PEA end? When I get pushed out of combat, because I'm not rolling initiative to climb round after round? When the last foe falls up top, ending the combat? When I reach the top? And does my situation affect everyone else's PEAs? Do theirs wear off at the end of the battle, or do they hang around until I get back? And are the answers the same if I get teleported a quarter-mile away across an empty open plain such that there is no risk at all in returning (as opposed to climbing the bank, which some might define as an "encounter" even though it is risk-free) other than the time it takes?

And how far in advance of a known encounter can I use a PEA? For example, if the party knows there are opponents behind the door can we use PEAs before bashing the door in, or do we have to wait until we act in the first round of the resulting brawl?

The more I think about this, the more I like fixed durations...

Lanefan

 

[TwoSix]

::frustrated::

But what defines an encounter?!? And can I use a per-encounter ability when there's no "encounter" to be had but there's still a useful reason to do so?

If there's a reason to do so, it's an encounter?

Example: can I strength-buff so I can save time by carrying more treasure (and-or corpses) back to camp in one trip? Can I Con-buff to give me greater endurance for a day of running across the plains (e.g. Aragorn-Legolas-Gimli chasing Merry-Pippin) and if I can will it last all day?

Why the assumption that Strength and Constitution buffs even exist? I thought it was pretty obvious that those kind of buffs were going the way of the dodo...too much in-combat calculation.

The in-initiative/out-of-initiative definition does not cover nearly enough. Initiative is not rolled to climb a cliff or open a door, yet both can easily be seen as encounters.

And they are. So's a diplomatic meeting, especially with the new non-combat encounter rules.

Does the encounter end for everyone at the same time regardless of situation? Example: if I use a PEA (Per-Encounter Ability) at the start of a battle, then get pushed down a bank only to spend the rest of the battle and then some climbing back up (assume a trivially easy climb with no risk but it's a long way, thus takes some time), when does my PEA end? When I get pushed out of combat, because I'm not rolling initiative to climb round after round? When the last foe falls up top, ending the combat? When I reach the top? And does my situation affect everyone else's PEAs? Do theirs wear off at the end of the battle, or do they hang around until I get back? And are the answers the same if I get teleported a quarter-mile away across an empty open plain such that there is no risk at all in returning (as opposed to climbing the bank, which some might define as an "encounter" even though it is risk-free) other than the time it takes?

And how far in advance of a known encounter can I use a PEA? For example, if the party knows there are opponents behind the door can we use PEAs before bashing the door in, or do we have to wait until we act in the first round of the resulting brawl?

Shrug. It ends when the encounter is over...if you're still describing the scene, it's not over. To me, the simplest way to think about it is this...if you're under a buff, and the buff would still benefit you right now, the encounter isn't over.

Still, I think you're way too focused on things like Strength buffs, which aren't going to be around. It'll be more of "For the rest of the encounter, you get a +4 to damage" sort of thing.

 

[Mistwell]

::frustrated::

But what defines an encounter?!?

You've known what defines an encounter in your game from 1e. You say to your player's "roll initiative" when the encounter starts. You tell your player's "you fall our of initiative" when the encounter ends. Encounters are when the time of the game dilates to a hierarchy based on initiative. That never had to be combat, as DMs often call for initiative even in social encounters just to get people organized into what order people will do what. But with this new edition, the definition of encounter and initiative rolls will be better defined, as apparently they are introducing a more structured encounter-based social system and terrain/trap overcoming system.

And can I use a per-encounter ability when there's no "encounter" to be had but there's still a useful reason to do so?

Example: can I strength-buff so I can save time by carrying more treasure (and-or corpses) back to camp in one trip? Can I Con-buff to give me greater endurance for a day of running across the plains (e.g. Aragorn-Legolas-Gimli chasing Merry-Pippin) and if I can will it last all day?

No. Per encounter abilities are not intended as abilities to be used outside of initiative. There are other powers and abilities suitable for such times, but the per-encounter ones are not.

The in-initiative/out-of-initiative definition does not cover nearly enough. Initiative is not rolled to climb a cliff or open a door, yet both can easily be seen as encounters.

If there is risk involved, usually initiative is called for. If there is no risk, then per-encounter abilities are generally not appropriate, and one of the other types of powers or abilities is more appropriate.

Does the encounter end for everyone at the same time regardless of situation?

When your character falls out of initiative, the encounter has ended for your character. Just like it always has.

And how far in advance of a known encounter can I use a PEA? For example, if the party knows there are opponents behind the door can we use PEAs before bashing the door in, or do we have to wait until we act in the first round of the resulting brawl?

Does your DM let you enter initiative before opening the door so that you can keep track of rounds for your spells right now? I am not understanding your issue with this mechanic. You are CURRENTLY dealing with this issue in some fashion if you play any version of the D&D game. Initiative determines when an encounter starts. It's ALWAYS been that way.

The more I think about this, the more I like fixed durations...

Lanefan

Well for me it's easier to not keep track of rounds.

 

[babomb]

I like encounter durations. From a certain (simulationist) perspective, it makes less sense ("How does the spell know when an encounter's over?"), but from a gamist perspective, it's a big improvement. It makes keeping track of things a lot easier. No more counting rounds. No more "Is buff x still up?".

Some will complain about the end of an encounter being ill-defined, and coming up with corner cases like the party splitting up mid-encounter. Here's the thing: 1) you already have to do this with rage, and 2) you have a human DM who has common sense and can adjudicate these cases as they come up. Just go along with what he decides in those rare instances, don't be a jerk, and don't argue about it (unless your group enjoys rules arguments). Have fun!

 

[Dausuul]

I'm hoping that stuff lasting for an encounter means it lasts 5 minutes or thereabouts. That seems about right.

As for scene-based durations... that can work, as long as it's consistent. Don't know if anyone else here plays Aberrant, but the way Aberrant durations work can lead to some very bizarre outcomes--witness the following exchange (paraphrased) between me and my ST last Thursday:

Me: "Okay, I'm going to fly up and hover over the compound, keeping watch. If Carbon gets into trouble, I'll fly down to help."
ST: "Um, what's the duration on your flight power? You'll run out in about thirty seconds."
Me: "Nope, all I have to do is pay three quantum and it lasts for a scene. If I were in a fight, I'd run out in thirty seconds, but that's just the combat duration. As long as I don't get in a fight, I can hang around in the sky all night long for just three quantum."
ST: ... "Right."

Of course, it just occurred to me that in some cases--particularly divine buffs--a literal encounter duration makes perfect sense. Your god gives you a boost to help you win this one fight. Once the fight is over, the boost is gone, whether it took one round or fifty.