D&D 5E (2024) Effects that kill you at 0 hp

[Maxperson]

how is could that be the failure of player skill - a 0HP death mechanic is nothing that happens in the narrative, its a pure mechanical effect. If you try to telegraph it in the narrative "this monster seems really deadly to you" or something like that, most players will think "oh they probably make tons of damage". I cannot fathom how someone would think it is a players failure to not correctly deduct from the narrative that this monster deactives a full component of game system.

The worst part of the mechanic that we haven't even talked about (correct me if I'm wrong): There is also nothing the players can do about it afterwards, they just have to accept it. I would rather implement something like "because of this masterful necrotic evil spell, you fail your death saving throws at 14 or lower" (like in Tomb of Annihilation) or something like "because of the incredible deadly wound this attack inflicted on you, you only need 2 failed death saving throws to die" because than you have the surprise, but still can react to it.

A mechanic that can't be anticipated, so the players can't make informed decisions to prepare, and that can't be reacted afterwards to diminish the damage, so the players informed decisions afterward are also limited - thats a bad mechanic to me for an TTRPG. Because roleplay is about making informed decisions, even in combat. Sure surprises are exciting, but they must leave the player with a new obstacle, a new problem to overcome, not just with an "oops youre dead". As @James Gasik said correctly IMO, mechanics like these reduce the game to a game of luck.

And OSR games or older D&D editions had a lot more of insta-death traps and abilites - so players knew they existed and anticipated them. 5e normally don't have them, so players have a much harder time to anticipate them.

For the people who like to play the way I am talking about, it is player skill. I'll give an example.

Suppose the party enters a new city and go to the local bar. While at the bar they overhear some locals talking about The Ruins of Doorkey. They decide that it sounds interesting and want to explore them.

The first thing they do is ask around about the ruins. They find an NPC who tells them that the deadly Morkfromork dwells there and nobody returns from the ruins.

Now the party is concerned, so they want to research what a Morkfromork is and can do. So they go to a library and after a time they read a passage that tells of a deadly energy that transfers from a Morkfromork if it should strike solidly with all six claws of its right hand. If that happens, death is instant.

Since only the final hit that takes you to 0 is a solid, damaging hit, they know that they need to avoid dropping to 0 against it.

Perhaps they try to find a sage that knows more to see if there is a way to defend against the attack.

That's player skill in action.

Or they don't do any of that and just go straight to the ruins from the tavern and it's all a surprise. That is a failure of player skill.

 

[jasper]

I've more than once seen 5e players derail the session about monster stat blocks and such for a bit demanding how it was capable of doing things it did then sometimes it later turns into a huge drama storm between the players when they later quit because "monsters are cheating" while trying to spike the campaign itself. One example was a giant of some sort with sentinel added making opportunity attacks from 10 feet away.

Sometimes in 3.x days players got it in their head to argue strict RAW only then it was generally accepted on some level that the GM had wiggle room and leeway when they needed it... But now I think the way AL chains GMs in the ALDMG with what amounts to THOUMUSTHALLRUNMODULEANDRULESABSOLUTEASWRITTEN while failing to provide gms with written options of note encourages many players coming in through AL to carry that expectation through to nonAL games with any deviation being immediate badwrongfun if the deviation is not a tyranny of fun benefit to them.

Dude run the module as written and the monsters are cheating happen back in 1e,

 

[tetrasodium]

Dude run the module as written and the monsters are cheating happen back in 1e,

How exactly would a GM running an adventure they themselves out together do that any more strictly than running what they wrote?

Also read the tail end of the post you quoted "now I think the way AL chains GMs in the ALDMG with what amounts to THOUMUSTHALLRUNMODULEANDRULESABSOLUTEASWRITTEN while failing to provide gms with written options of note encourages many players coming in through AL to carry that expectation through to nonAL games with any deviation being immediate badwrongfun if the deviation is not a tyranny of fun benefit to them". Thanks for proving that point true enough about the curret over the top state of player expectations 5e has encouraged.

 

[jasper]

How exactly would a GM running an adventure they themselves out together do that any more strictly than running what they wrote?

Also read the tail end of the post you quoted "now I think the way AL chains GMs in the ALDMG with what amounts to THOUMUSTHALLRUNMODULEANDRULESABSOLUTEASWRITTEN while failing to provide gms with written options of note encourages many players coming in through AL to carry that expectation through to nonAL games with any deviation being immediate badwrongfun if the deviation is not a tyranny of fun benefit to them". Thanks for proving that point true enough about the curret over the top state of player expectations 5e has encouraged.

No I not going to read the tail end of the post.

 

[Umbran]

No I not going to read the tail end of the post.

Mod Note:
If you aren't going to engage properly, please don't engage at all. Next time you're not going to read, maybe go somewhere else, and do something constructive, instead of threadcrapping, hm? Thanks.

 

[jasper]

How exactly would a GM running an adventure they themselves out together do that any more strictly than running what they wrote?

Also read the tail end of the post you quoted "now I think the way AL chains GMs in the ALDMG with what amounts to with written options of note encourages many players coming in through AL to carry that expectation through to nonAL games with any deviation being immediate badwrongfun if the deviation is not a tyranny of fun benefit to them". Thanks for proving that point true enough about the curret over the top state of player expectations 5e has encouraged.

THOUMUSTHALLRUNMODULEANDRULESABSOLUTEASWRITTEN while failing to provide gms .... you are noT talking about AL. You are talking about average written modules vs greatly written modules.

Modules have always been badly written to average written. And can not be written to cover all the different ways a player can naughty word can an adventure. But the meat computer in a dm can nearly cover all the bs, or just say
GUYSYOUAREOFFSCRIPTAGAINLETSGETBACKONPOINT.

 

[tetrasodium]

THOUMUSTHALLRUNMODULEANDRULESABSOLUTEASWRITTEN while failing to provide gms .... you are noT talking about AL. You are talking about average written modules vs greatly written modules.

Modules have always been badly written to average written. And can not be written to cover all the different ways a player can naughty word can an adventure. But the meat computer in a dm can nearly cover all the bs, or just say
GUYSYOUAREOFFSCRIPTAGAINLETSGETBACKONPOINT.

There is no need to make derrogitory claims about the skill of GM's who make their own adventures or modify monsters to justify unreasonable player expectations like this to support the gospel of Run As Written OR ELSE. Even Wotc's own "greatly written modules" have been listed with specific examples in recent discussion.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not sure how the thread got on this tangent, but about AL, I will say, during my stint as a DM for AL, despite the fact that it's very clearly stated that:

I received unbelievable pushback for daring to make adventures "harder" for the players. It was surreal, something I'd never encountered in my home games. Apparently the players believed that an AL mod should always be run as written, no matter the size or levels of the group, so that their optimized builds could blast through content quickly and easily and they could collect their prizes and carry on without incident.

Even other AL DM's would argue with me, saying that it was somehow "against the spirit of AL" to modify the adventures (let alone make my own rulings, le gasp!), because AL was about "fun".

Some players started calling me the "Killer DM". How did they know I modified the adventures, you ask? Well, when I ran Tales From the Yawning Portal, I caught two of them flipping through the store copy of the adventure to make sure I wasn't "cheating".

 

[AlViking]

I'm not sure how the thread got on this tangent, but about AL, I will say, during my stint as a DM for AL, despite the fact that it's very clearly stated that:

View attachment 412402

I received unbelievable pushback for daring to make adventures "harder" for the players. It was surreal, something I'd never encountered in my home games. Apparently the players believed that an AL mod should always be run as written, no matter the size or levels of the group, so that their optimized builds could blast through content quickly and easily and they could collect their prizes and carry on without incident.

Even other AL DM's would argue with me, saying that it was somehow "against the spirit of AL" to modify the adventures (let alone make my own rulings, le gasp!), because AL was about "fun".

Some players started calling me the "Killer DM". How did they know I modified the adventures, you ask? Well, when I ran Tales From the Yawning Portal, I caught two of them flipping through the store copy of the adventure to make sure I wasn't "cheating".

That's unfortunate. I was always a popular DM when running public games because people knew it wouldn't be a cakewalk. Some of my most memorable games had almost everyone in the party unconscious at one point or another. It's not like death is permanent in those games, unless it's changed over the past couple of years since I stopped being involved because of COVID.

 

[James Gasik]

That's unfortunate. I was always a popular DM when running public games because people knew it wouldn't be a cakewalk. Some of my most memorable games had almost everyone in the party unconscious at one point or another. It's not like death is permanent in those games, unless it's changed over the past couple of years since I stopped being involved because of COVID.

Death can be permanent in certain situations- Tomb of Annihilation, as I recall was one. During Curse of Strahd, a Ranger was disintegrated which turned into a whole thing as the player (a young girl) burst into tears at the loss of her character when it was explained that a mere raise dead would not revive her. She went from table to table, begging people to help her (and telling everyone what a horrible DM killed her character off "for no reason") until someone with a Luck Blade used a Wish to revive the character (seemed kind of sus to me, but I soon learned that the AL guidelines for how PC's can help each other are ripe with loophole abuse when I ran a game with someone who got a Ring of Spell Storing).

What actually happened- the final enemy had this huge statblock, like a page and a half, and could in fact, cast various spells, including disintegrate. I was allowed to see the statblock to verify this, but supposedly the adventure either disallows or highly suggests you not use that ability- which confused me because why give an enemy disintegrate if they're not supposed to have it?