Elder Red Dragon preview is up

[Klaus]

I like the new Red Dragon, but I'd love to see it with at least some use for its minor actions. A roar, a wing buffet, a single-target spray of fire...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I like the new Red Dragon, but I'd love to see it with at least some use for its minor actions. A roar, a wing buffet, a single-target spray of fire...

Yeah, it's funny, minor action monster stuff doesn't seem to be super common. OTOH it represents a nice little spot where the DM can drop in something custom that won't get too much in the way of the basic mechanics of the creature.

 

[MightyZehir]

I think the red dragon uses the minor actions to sustain grabs.

 

[kevtar]

just for clarity, I didn't mean a to hit penalty for the entire encounter. The stun effect wasn't for the entire encounter. I thought of something like until the end of the Dragon's next turn or something along those lines.

 

[Aegeri]

On the stun debate: Has everyone forgot that epic PCs are shedding stun like water these days? You have feats like Superior Will (picked up in heroic tier at earliest actually) that gives a good bonus to will defense and allows you to save stun effects at the beginning of your turn. The entire game is moving to marginalize "I win" powers like stun/dominate and such.

The dragon stunning a party that has anyone invested in Epic Will (who wouldn't have this?) is wasting its turn. Far better to just smash the absolute nonsense out of them and that is something this dragon is exceptionally good at. Personally a game based on offense is better for solos. This one breaks all kinds of stun lock cheese and can put up a dedicated offense. That's exactly what we need out of a solo.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

On the stun debate: Has everyone forgot that epic PCs are shedding stun like water these days?

These days? Doesn't that mean these feats aren't in either PH1 or whatever is core for Essentials?

You have feats like Superior Will (picked up in heroic tier at earliest actually) that gives a good bonus to will defense and allows you to save stun effects at the beginning of your turn.

You might be making a lot of assumptions about what sort of feats characters take.

The entire game is moving to marginalize "I win" powers like stun/dominate and such.

The dragon stunning a party that has anyone invested in Epic Will (who wouldn't have this?)

Plenty of people? Sometimes players want to stick with class-based feats or those that make sense for their character.

 

[turnip]

It stretches my suspension of disbelief that it has a Dexterity of 21. The thing weighs 10 metric tons, and is more nimble than Baryshnikov?

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

I think that just dovetails into how Stats are fairly meaningless now. It used to be that a 17 or 18 in a stat was amazing. Now it's Meh.

 

[Aegeri]

These days? Doesn't that mean these feats aren't in either PH1 or whatever is core for Essentials?

They are in the core for essentials actually, Superior Will is the improved will maths feat. For a cheap price of 15 wis or charisma, you can make a character that is very resistant to stun effects.

Not to mention all the other feats, paths and epic destinies that make you highly resistant (or even immune in some EDs cases) to being stunned. Stunned frankly is not as useful for a monster at paragon/epic as simply being able to attack more and inflict damage. Damage kills PCs, stunning them merely annoys them and doesn't work a good chunk of the time anyway.

You might be making a lot of assumptions about what sort of feats characters take.

Epic will is +4 to Will Defense and a saving throw at the beginning of your turn against debilitating status effects.

This is not an assumption. If you have the Will, you take that feat in a good chunk of cases.

Plenty of people? Sometimes players want to stick with class-based feats or those that make sense for their character.

When you're chain dominated constantly because your will defense sucks and spend more time hitting your allies than you do the enemy, feats like Epic Will become more than somewhat required.

Not that there aren't a lot of other ways of completely negating stun/dominate now for many characters. Direct damage is far better for solos and if they waste a round doing no damage, it just leads to extending a fight: Not making it exciting.

This is finally what Wizards have figured out. I personally haven't used a solo with an AoE stun attack now in a few months. I use single target stun/dominate effects though, but they come with damage or immediate attacks (or in the case of many no-damage dominates, are minor actions). The worst status effect I usually impose is an AoE daze + damage. I just find the game is better off when creatures and PCs can actually act.

An endless war where everyone is trying to stack stuns/dazes onto one another, without actually killing anything is boring and leads to 90% of the "Epic level is a grind problem". Remove the endless status effect metagame and suddenly you have a fun, exciting epic level that is about killing things faster than they kill you.

Quite frankly, nerfing the crap out of stun/dominate/daze through monster powers (like instinctive action and action recovery) and by giving PCs items, feats, EDs and PPs to deal with it has been the best decision by wizards. Epic and even paragon tier play far better now than they did previously. Bear in mind until monsters like solos started to get ways of genuinely just canceling/dealing with stun/daze/dominate high level 4E essentially was about chaining until end of next turn stun/dominate/daze effects on solos until dead. You had long grindfest fights where the creature did nothing, or alternatively where it repeatedly stunned PCs or similar and did nothing anyway (due to doing pittance for damage).

I do not lament the loss of pointless fight extenders. If anyone asks "What do you do about defenders?" the simple answer is: Drop them. You have the damage output to do that now.

 

[turnip]

I think that just dovetails into how Stats are fairly meaningless now. It used to be that a 17 or 18 in a stat was amazing. Now it's Meh.

Yeah, and it INFURIATES me as to how you need multiple high stats to be a passable character.

What...so I need high strength, and constitution, and WISDOM to be a decent fighter? So I can't be an awesome bladeswinger and mail wearer unless I'm like Socrates with a sword? Why?

I agree; gone are the days of stats that actually represented your character. Now, it's like they are simply mechanics for Cool Things to Do (TM) and you have to roleplay around them and ignore them.

*sigh*