Elemental Overuse (forked from:The Sorcerer)

[Hawke]

Forked from: Preview: The Sorcerer

As well as doing my usual thing when it comes to Arcane classes and most classes in general. Getting rid of lots of the elemental spells and making it non-elemental (long lasting pet peeve of mine is the amount of elemental stuff there is).

This is an excellent point and one of my biggest misunderstandings about the direction they plan to take 4E. I would guess that with an Elemental Power Source confirmed, elemental powers by classes would be much rarer. It seems so easy for a wizard to do all sorts of types of elemental damage...

What does that leave for the Elemental power source? If they do it similar to, say, an Avatar:TLA style then different classes will be hooked to a single source (much like the genasi, i'd guess). But this seems to be inferior to a Wizard who can do a fire spell followed by an ice spell or a dragonblood sorcerer spitting some fire spell and then throwing some icy shards at people next route.

I would've imagined the non-elemental power sources would've been kept to a minimum with maybe even an arcane keyword to indicate the eldritch energy imbued. Certain paths might take them down an elemental marriage between magic and the element of their choice, but I wouldn't have expected so much.

This all would be moot, though, if Elemental wasn't a power source. It'd make sense the wizard would be doing all the stuff he is, but I am just curious how it all fits in.

Did wizards back themselves into a corner with the Elemental power source?

 

[hvg3akaek]

An idea I just had (and thought was interesting ) would be that the elemental source powers have some way of cutting through resistances. So, that fire-only elemental user could gradually get encounters and dailies that dealt fire damage that could pierce through resistances, and possibly even invulnerabilities, eventually.

Just an idea, though

 

[Cadfan]

I'm sure they had some vision of the elemental power source and what made it distinct from arcane when they decided that they'd have an elemental power source in the first place.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I don't really see the need to pull back on elemental effects for the Wizard just because there is an Elemental Power Source. I have played too many videogame RPGs to ever be able to separate magic from elemental spells, after all. Besides, elemental attacks are one of those things that need to be fairly widespread in order to really justify their existence. Rules that govern elemental resistance, vulnerability, and the like need to come up fairly often for a wide variety of classes in order to justify the added complexity they bring to the game. If nothing other than Elemental Power Source classes had many elemental powers, then it actually makes it hard to justify even having elemental properties, and possibly even reduces the value of the Elemental Power Source itself. In other words, having classes that have a variety of elemental powers makes it worthwhile to create monsters with elemental vulnerabilities and resistances, which makes a dedicated Elemental Power Source more interesting and viable.

Anyways, I doubt that the Elemental Power Source is going to be boring or redundant. I have heard some speculation that the Elemental Power Source is going to be some kind of "Asian Arcane or Divine" the same way that Ki might be seen as the "Asian Martial", which I like the sound of because it would potentially make it a bit more distinct. It is very likely that it is going to have class features and class builds built around specialization in a particular element, which is something that we have not yet seen for any other Power Source. Certainly, it is going to have the same kind of unpredictable distinguishing quirks that every other Power Source has had, like the Divine bonus to armor proficiency or the Primal bonus to hitpoints.

I really can't say that I will be able to predict what WotC will do with the Elemental Power Source, but they have far more flexibility open to them than just saying it is the only power source with elemental attacks, so I have faith that it will be interesting.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Oh my! A comment of mine spawned a thread, I must comment!

Personally, it isn't the Elemental Power Source that is of issue with me, I think they'll be able to pull it off fine and make it unique and such. My personal imagination is leaning toward mixing up the elements, ie; raining fire, the ground beneath someone turning to water then freezing at their waist, etc.

My personal issue with elemental magic, goes beyond D&D and is like, I said a "pet peeve", I always liked Arcane to be more unknowable, more well weird. So stuff like eldritch energy, sigil magic, blood magic, etc, etc. You can get why a fireball would hurt, you don't get why some weird form of energy from another dimension harms you or well you do but not HOW. That how and what? Is what I like to see from Arcane.

 

[Hawke]

Fallen Seraph, any generic fast and loose rules you're having for your re-fluff/re-crunch to make arcane more this direction?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well the most obvious is simply changing the Keyword to something else. The main concern in that, is you could potentially hamper or overpower the character by doing so based on what are common or uncommon resistances.

Besides that, well I usually cherry-pick what Powers I use. I find I end up with lots of Force, Psychic, Illusion, Necrotic, etc. I find too despite being elemental Lightning and in-some regards Thunder too, they feel more "pure magical" for me, for some reason.

 

[bert1000]

I have nothing against elemental magic, but I do feel the overuse of elemental riders or maybe the lack of coherent themes to who gets them.

I think it comes down to the large but still limited stuff that powers do right now. I feel that push/pull/slide is over used too. Part of this is intentional but part is just a new system.

A lot of classes get elemental powers in 4e, where in older additions this was magic user/cleric/druid domain. As different kinds of powers become available (beast, illusion, charm, summoning) maybe this won't feel as bad, and we'll see some clearer dominant classes for elemental powers. I'd like this, as it makes them special (same goes for other types of effects).

 

[Nymrohd]

I think this is partly because feat support for implement powers without an elemental keyword is non-existant at the moment. While having powers that did untyped damage may well have been cool, they would not be supported by feats.

 

[Errantocracy]

I believe that, similar to the way in which the Shadow power source will be tied to the Shadowfell (meaning undead related, and not just traditional shadowy stuff), the Elemental power source will be tied to Elemental Chaos. Thus it would not simply be a wizard focused on one damage type, but something darker and more primeval. Also note that most powers for other classes that are elemental tend to rely on one element at a time; the Elemental Chaos fluff notes that it's a place where the elements mix. An Elementalist will probably be loaded with spells that combine fire and ice, etc.