Elemental Planes Killed

[Mercule]

I have not however ever seen an adventure in the elemental plane of water. It seems kind of ironic to me that an entire new elemental plane would be a less exciting place to adventure in then simply going under the water of your home plane.

I find it silly that you need a dedicated plane on which to conduct underwater adventures when you have the deep ocean.

My problem with the elemental planes isn't that I dislike underwater adventures (or trips to really hot places or underground or cloud cities). The elemental planes are just contrived constructs to give verbal shorthand to the idea that "you ain't in Kansas, anymore."

The very notion of earth, air, fire, water has been rendered so overused by cheap, crappy fiction that I want to stay totally away from it. D&D actually has one of the least interesting uses of the elements ever. They don't really do anything or impact anything. They're just dormitories for summoned critters. Not that I really want D&D to make the elements effect anything -- as I said, they're hack window dressing.

Rather than having these infinite planes of monotonous nothing, I'd rather see themed planes that served an interesting purpose.

Don't say the City of Brass exists somewhere within the plane of elemental fire and can be reached by plane shifting or gating to it. Say that the City of Brass exists in a place not of this world but which can be found by walking between a pair of basalt pillars deep within the southern desert, but only on the hottest day of the year.

Arcadia isn't one of the outer planes that just needs your spell ticket to travel. It's the fey realm that exists hidden from mortal eyes. Sometimes, though, moments of great emotion in a place of unspoiled wilderness can call to that realm and bring it close for a time. Beware of trysts near that blue water lake, but also avoid sulking and plotting revenge from the secluded depths of the ancient forest.

 

[GreatLemur]

Which will be no actual change at all, simply sticking a 'New and Improved' sticker on the product while 'fixing' problems that I don't actually have.

I'd say there'd likely be a major change in the presentation of the Elemental Planes, in this case, and much more information given about the various habitable regions. You can quite reasonably say that not a "real" change, but I expect that would change a lot of DMs' perceptions of the Elemental Planes, and make them much more usable for most adventuring groups. I mean, for all the elemental pockets and border regions they might already have, I think the general response in this thread suggests that there ain't enough there to make them seem very interesting to a lot of folks. Changing that doesn't seem like a bad idea.

 

[Celebrim]

That's a good point. It's important to remember that at some point along the trail we shouldn't mix our fantasy with real-world physics, because that way lies insanity.

Someone around here has a sig that says something like, "Physics is an optional house rule."

One of the main advantages of the current system is that whenever some player tries to impose real world physics on the fantasy universe, I have an nearly infinate range of canonical objections to make to his argument showing that real world physics simply can't apply. I have a fairly good background in physics (12 college hours and about 20 hours of engineering), but there is always going to be someone at the table that knows more than I do and tries to game that knowledge to his advantage. If the fantasy universe has four elements, then no one knows more about its physics than I do.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The "change for the sake of change" argument doesn't apply here, since Perkins gave the reason for the change right there in his post. You even quoted it:

That is why Reading Is Fundamental!

R.I.F.

 

[Grog]

Interestingly, the Elemental Plane of Air and the Elemental Plane of Water are two of the most accessible and survivable planes for low level adventurers. The first is theoretically survivable by anyone, though in practice you need to fly to actually get anywhere. However, flight is available as a third level spell, and flying mounts are conceivably available at reasonably low levels (purchase of hippogriffs or spider eaters or whatever).

Fly lasts 1 minute per level and affects one creature. It's not a serious option for a 5th level party if they want to get anywhere. Air Walk (4th level) is better, at 10 minutes per level, but it only works effectively if there's no wind, which is hardly a safe assumption on the plane of air. Overland Flight is 5th level, but it's caster only. So you're probably looking at Wind Walk as the best option, which means the party needs to be at least 11th level (13th if it's being cast by a druid).

And I'm not aware of any core rules for flying mounts.

The second requires only that you have means to breathe water.

And have a means to move around (and, presumably, fight). Freedom of Movement is 4th level and affects one creature, so you're probably looking at at least a 9th level party before they can throw out four 4th level spells (not to mention that it only lasts 10 minutes per level). The other alternative is a wand of Freedom of Movement, but that's not cheap to craft - over 10,000 gold and a little under 1,000 xp.

Even for the two most hospitable elemental planes, you have to be mid-level at least before you can seriously attempt to adventure there. (Not that this is a bad thing; unless you're running a Planescape campaign, planar adventures should be the stuff of mid- and high-level games, IMO).

As for whether they're interesting places to adventure - well, that's another matter.

 

[Celebrim]

I find it silly that you need a dedicated plane on which to conduct underwater adventures when you have the deep ocean.

To a certain extent, I do too. See my 9:56 post.

The elemental planes are just contrived constructs to give verbal shorthand to the idea that "you ain't in Kansas, anymore."

You say this like its a bad thing.

The very notion of earth, air, fire, water has been rendered so overused by cheap, crappy fiction that I want to stay totally away from it.

I guess the difference between me and you then comes down to I haven't been exposed to this cheap crappy fiction.

Not that I really want D&D to make the elements effect anything -- as I said, they're hack window dressing.

It sounds to me that the only changes you wish to make are changes to the window dressing. I'm inclined to say that the elemental planes are themed planes that serve an interesting purpose (even if that purpose is only 'you aren't in Kansas anymore), and can serve any additional purpose that the DM wants, that they are not planes of monotonous nothing, they are infinite tablets you can write almost anything on to, and that your very citing of existing locations like the City of Brass demonstrates that.

Say that the City of Brass exists in a place not of this world but which can be found by walking between a pair of basalt pillars deep within the southern desert, but only on the hottest day of the year.

But isn't that the same thing? Isn't that how things already work?

 

[Celebrim]

I'd say there'd likely be a major change in the presentation of the Elemental Planes...

I'd say that if the blogger had made it explicit that there would only be a change in the presentation of the Elemental Planes, that this thread wouldn't even exist. Of course, if all your changes are changes of presentation, people are going to feel less need to buy a new edition. And sense people are unlikely to buy pure fluff books in large numbers...

 

[Celebrim]

Now, of course DMs could choose to have the PCs appear in more hospitable locations on these planes - but that's just admitting that these planes are useless as adventure locations without DMs making changes to them.

No, it's not. It's admitting that the planes are useless as adventure locations for low level characters without some serious DM handholding. But so what. That's true of most low level adventures. You typically don't start a party of 1st level characters in the middle of the Trackless Dragon Wastes of Dread, and if you do, you are doing serious handholding to isolate them from the typical threats of this locale.

Why not make them more open for adventuring from the beginning?

Well, why even have them at all?

 

[catsclaw227]

One important note to keep at the front of our minds when analyzing 4e tidbits - and really anything related to revising RPGs - is that one of the goals is to provide a pathway for new players and ultimately new DMs. (Edit: Or maybe the other way around. Whatever. )

For many of us that have been DMing a long time, well then obviously we don't need to have a book tell us that we can make our own Elemental Planes to have pockets of somewhat hospitable environments. The plane of Fire could have an "edge" region that is more like the surface of that lava/volcanic planet that Obi-Wan fought Vader, or the plane of air might have clouds that have spawned an extraplanar vegitation that can act like a surface on which to adventure.

Anyway, what I am saying is that making adjustments to the elemental planes so make them more adventure friendly is a GOOD thing for bringing current players who have never DMed provide them with a means to run an extraplanar adventure, who may also bring additional new players to the hobby.

Even beginner DMs can extend their experience by having the means to do so at their disposal with a well written and defined elemental adventure environment.

I really can't see any of these "gateway" upgrades as a bad thing.

 

[GreatLemur]

I'd say that if the blogger had made it explicit that there would only be a change in the presentation of the Elemental Planes, that this thread wouldn't even exist. Of course, if all your changes are changes of presentation, people are going to feel less need to buy a new edition.

We're talking about a paradigm change regarding which features of the Elemental Planes get spotlighted and fleshed out, not a new font and some layout changes. Obviously, making a bigger deal out of the survivable parts of the Elemental Planes would mean the introduction of new information, not just a restructuring of existing information. By "presentation", I mean the presentation of the whole idea, not the presentation of the specific content.