Elemental Planes Killed

[Grog]

No, it's not. It's admitting that the planes are useless as adventure locations for low level characters without some serious DM handholding.

Or mid- and even high-level characters, if we're talking about the planes of fire and earth.

Well, why even have them at all?

That's the question that lots of people are asking right now.

 

[Celebrim]

One important note to keep at the front of our minds when analyzing 4e tidbits - and really anything related to revising RPGs - is that one of the goals is to provide a pathway for new players and ultimately new DMs.

This may well be true, but it would be yet another example of how this edition isn't being designed with me in mind and attempts to fix alot of problems I don't have. Now, that's fine. They don't have to design the edition with me in mind, but if the trend of doing alot of things that doesn't have experienced players in mind continues I don't think that they should be terribly suprised if alot of experienced DM's say, "This wasn't designed with me in mind. This attempts to fix a problem I don't have. Therefore, I don't need this."

Even beginner DMs can extend their experience by having the means to do so at their disposal with a well written and defined elemental adventure environment.

The best way to help novice DMs is to give them well written modules. Show them how. Don't just tell them how.

 

[Mercule]

But isn't that the same thing? Isn't that how things already work?

That is quite possible in terms of fluff. The mechanics don't line up with the notion, though.

 

[catsclaw227]

This may well be true, but it would be yet another example of how this edition isn't being designed with me in mind and attempts to fix alot of problems I don't have. Now, that's fine. They don't have to design the edition with me in mind, but if the trend of doing alot of things that doesn't have experienced players in mind continues I don't think that they should be terribly suprised if alot of experienced DM's say, "This wasn't designed with me in mind. This attempts to fix a problem I don't have. Therefore, I don't need this."

It's important to note that I said it was ONE of the goals, not the only goal. The guys doing the development are experienced players and DMs. I trust they have an idea about what many (most?) other experienced DMs and players would like to see in a new revision and I expect that they will keep these things in mind when developing 4e.

Just because they want to prvide some direction to new players and DMs doesn't mean that they aren't going to write some cool adventures and complex (hopefully not clunky) mechanics that cater to experienced players and DMs.

 

[Celebrim]

That's the question that lots of people are asking right now.

Ahh, good. Because I have the answer for them.

You have other planes to deal with the fact that in D&D your characters start out as 'casually realistic heroes' (levels 1-5) and end up as 'sword and spell slingers in capes' (levels 15-20+). For the heroes to be plausible heroes at 1st - 5th level, the ordinary inhabitants of thier starting environment can't be uncommonly powerful. This presents a simulationist problem. What keeps the challenges that high level characters have to face separate from the ordinary inhabitants who have no means of resisting them? Planes of existance provide a physical and psychological barrier between the really dangerous stuff that high level characters must face in order to be challenged, and the ordinary stuff that they faced as low level characters so they are one very good answer to this question.

So why have an elemental plane of fire if its only a plausible adventuring place for 15th or higher level characters? Because it is a plausible highly challenging adventuring place for 15th or higher (indeed much higher) level characters. You don't need a plane of fire that is a plausible adventuring place for lower level characters, because there are already a large number of exiciting possibilities for lower level characters which still retain versimilitude. You don't need terrain as hazardous as a plane of fire to challenge low level characters, because they are suitably challenged by ordinary deserts or even volcanos. However, as I mentioned, the possibility is there if you the DM really want to enable it for whatever reason, it just involves some hand holding.

 

[Celebrim]

That is quite possible in terms of fluff. The mechanics don't line up with the notion, though.

So you want mechanics for Sigil like portals and keys in the core rules? I like Planescape as much as the next person, but I don't see the need for core mechanics for what is by and large a product of DM fiat and flavor choices.

 

[Grog]

Ahh, good. Because I have the answer for them.

(...)

So why have an elemental plane of fire if its only a plausible adventuring place for 15th or higher level characters?

You answered the wrong question. The question is not "why have an elemental plane of fire if its only a plausible adventuring place for 15th or higher level characters?" It's "why have an elemental plane of fire if no one ever uses it in their game?"

Kurotowa said it best: As it stands now (at least under the core rules), the elemental planes are a pain in the ass to visit and don't have anything worth seeing anyway. If that's changing, that's a good thing, IMO.

 

[Celebrim]

You answered the wrong question. The question is not "why have an elemental plane of fire if its only a plausible adventuring place for 15th or higher level characters?" It's "why have an elemental plane of fire if no one ever uses it in their game?"

Go to town.

Kurotowa said it best: As it stands now (at least under the core rules), the elemental planes are a pain in the ass to visit and don't have anything worth seeing anyway.

I'm not sure fluff = rules, but in any event, by the same logic it seems to me that dungeons are are a pain in the butt to visit and don't have anything worth seeing anway (unless the DM puts something there). Why visit the prime?

 

[pawsplay]

You answered the wrong question. The question is not "why have an elemental plane of fire if its only a plausible adventuring place for 15th or higher level characters?" It's "why have an elemental plane of fire if no one ever uses it in their game?"

Kurotowa said it best: As it stands now (at least under the core rules), the elemental planes are a pain in the ass to visit and don't have anything worth seeing anyway. If that's changing, that's a good thing, IMO.

I've adventured on the plane of fire before.

 

[Dinkeldog]

What I'm failing to see is why this should be the sacred cow that anyone would care about. Now, if they'd eliminated classes, levels, hit points (or instituted the "death spiral"), those would bother me.

In 30-some years of playing, though, I could count on one hand how many times a campaign I was in ventured to the elemental planes. The other outer planes (in the Great Wheel configuration) have been visited far more often, but those sides of beef have been slaughtered long before now, for tailoring to campaigns.