Elementals and subdual damage

[Quasqueton]

Are elementals immune to subdual damage?

I may be overlooking the words, but I can't find mention of elementals being immune to subdual damage.

They are immune to criticals, stunning, sneak attacks, etc. But no mention of subdual damage. Usually, when something is immune to the above damages, they are also immune to subdual. Am I overlooking something.

I couldn't find mention of it in the errata either.

Quasqueton

 

[Quasqueton]

Bueller?

Bueller?

Bueller?

 

[kreynolds]

Are elementals immune to subdual damage?

No.

They are immune to criticals, stunning, sneak attacks, etc. But no mention of subdual damage. Usually, when something is immune to the above damages, they are also immune to subdual. Am I overlooking something.

You could be thinking of undead and constructs.

 

[Quasqueton]

You could be thinking of undead and constructs.

MM:

[Elementals are] immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning. elementals have no clear front or back and are therefore not subject to critical hits or flanking.

The only other creature types immune to stunning and criticals are undead, constructs, plants, and oozes. Interestingly, apparently only undead and constructs are also immune to subdual damage.

This came up in our last game session. It just seems a weird concept of an unconscious fire elemental (or water or air). What happens to the physical 'body' of a fire or water or air elemental that is knocked out?

Quasqueton

 

[kreynolds]

This came up in our last game session. It just seems a weird concept of an unconscious fire elemental (or water or air). What happens to the physical 'body' of a fire or water or air elemental that is knocked out?

Nothing happens to it. It isn't dead. Its just knocked out. Remember that elementals are alive in every sense of the word. Constructs and Undead violoate the laws of life and death. You can destroy a construct or undead creature, but you can't really hurt it.

 

[Quasqueton]

Remember that elementals are alive in every sense of the word.

Really? I'll agree that they are alive in the D&D magic sense of the word. But that is the only sense that an eternally burning force of raw 'nature' is alive. Or an animate hunk of rock is alive. Or a wispy, barely tangible cloud of vapor is alive. Or a sentient wave is alive.

If they were truly alive "in every sense of the word". . .

Can you suffocate an earth elemental?

Does an air elemental eat and make waste?

Do elementals sleep?

Etc.

I know and understand that there is a fair amount of suspension of disbelief and hand waving about the concept of an elemental creature. I have no problem with this. But it just struck me as 'weird' that (pure) elementals were not immune to subdual damage, as they are immune to stunning and critical hits.

As for my follow up question on what happens to the physical bodies of unconscious elementals -- does a knocked out air elemental float in mid air? Does a water elemental retain its wave form? Does a fire elemental continue to burn? Can you tell if an unmoving earth elemental is alive or dead or unconscious?

Though D&D3 doesn't tell exactly how elementals are 'alive' or what happens when you shove a spear through one, I've always considered attacks to disrupt the magical essence that holds them together. But I'm at a loss for describing the effects of a sap over one's 'head'.

[The actual situation in our game was using a whip. But all elementals have enough natural armor to ignore the whip subdual damage. But the question came up, and I thought I'd ask for future reference.]

Quasqueton

 

[kreynolds]

Really? I'll agree that they are alive in the D&D magic sense of the word.

Its not that simple. They are alive, regardless of magic. What happens when an elemental steps into an antimagic field? Nothing. Magic does not bind them together.

If they were truly alive "in every sense of the word". . .

Can you suffocate an earth elemental?

Does an air elemental eat and make waste?

Do elementals sleep?

I don't know. The Slayer's Guide to Elementals has not been released yet. However, none of the above question change anything. In regards to D&D, in every sense of the word, elementals are alive. They are not constructs. They are not objects. They are not animated objects. They are a type of living creature. Most notably, this is evident based upon the fact that they have a Con score.

Twisting "in every sense of the word" into a semantic argument doesn't change anything, as according to the rules, they are alive.

I know and understand that there is a fair amount of suspension of disbelief and hand waving about the concept of an elemental creature. I have no problem with this. But it just struck me as 'weird' that (pure) elementals were not immune to subdual damage, as they are immune to stunning and critical hits.

The reason they can't be stunned is because they don't have any weak spots, because they don't have a discernable anatomy, which is why they are immune to crits and sneak attacks. However, subdual damage doesn't really have anything to do with stunning. That's a whole different manner. Subdual is merely a way to damage a creature without killing it. You can't "hurt" a skeleton. Its already dead (sort of), thus its immune to subdual.

As for my follow up question on what happens to the physical bodies of unconscious elementals...

Whatever would normally happen, I would guess. The same kind of wierd question can also be asked of a knocked out beholder, or even a dead one, for that matter (shudders at the thought of that thread).

does a knocked out air elemental float in mid air?

Sounds good to me, or have it fall to the floor. Whatever really.

Does a water elemental retain its wave form?

Sure. Why not? I wouldn't recommend having it turn into a large puddle of water. Its not an ooze.

Does a fire elemental continue to burn?

Absolutely. Its made of fire.

Can you tell if an unmoving earth elemental is alive or dead or unconscious?

Sure. Kick it or hit it with a warhammer and see what happens. The same question could be asked of any construct. Although, Earth Elementals do not automatically get to look like inanimate statues. That would require a disguise check. No joke.

Though D&D3 doesn't tell exactly how elementals are 'alive' or what happens when you shove a spear through one, I've always considered attacks to disrupt the magical essence that holds them together.

Magic does not hold them together, at least not on a level that matters. If it did, they would go "poof" in an antimagic field.

[The actual situation in our game was using a whip. But all elementals have enough natural armor to ignore the whip subdual damage. But the question came up, and I thought I'd ask for future reference.]

Its definately a wierd topic, but I do think you're over-complicating the matter somewhat. Try to keep it simple.

 

[Skaros]

What KReynolds said. They _are_ alive, unlike constructs, which are animated objects that were never alive in any sense.

-Skaros

 

[Quasqueton]

Its definately a wierd topic, but I do think you're over-complicating the matter somewhat. Try to keep it simple.

Yeah, I you're right. Sometimes I just can't fit a concept into my head, and I need to talk it out. Thanks for the responses kreynolds. You've helped me mold the idea into a workable form.

Quasqueton

 

[kreynolds]

Yeah, I you're right. Sometimes I just can't fit a concept into my head, and I need to talk it out.

Oh, believe me, I know exactly where you're coming from. 3rd Edition was the first time I ever actually saw rules for a Vorpal weapon, and when I read them, I couldn't fit that concept into my head either. After talking it out with my group, realizing they couldn't fit it into their heads either, I house ruled the crap out of it.

Thanks for the responses kreynolds. You've helped me mold the idea into a workable form.

Glad I could help.