Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth (post-release proofread complete!)

[RangerWickett]

MAGE DUELIST [Mage]
You may spontaneously elect to counterspell an incoming spell that you are aware of.
Prerequisite: Quicken Spell
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can elect to give up your next turn to perform a counterspell against an incoming spell. You must not be flat-footed, and you must be aware of the incoming spell. Your initiative does not change; you simply do not take an action on your next turn.
Notes: An immediate action can be taken at any point, even when it's not your turn.

The actual rule I used was close to that. It made it into EOM-R, and if I were to repost it for use in Mythic Earth, I'd make it thus:

Reactive Counterspell [Mage]
You are skilled at misleading foes and countering spells in magical duels.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Benefit: As long as you are not flat-footed, whenever a creature casts a spell that you are aware of, you can cast a counterspell as an immediate action. A counterspell can be either a magical skill dispel or a Spellcraft dispel.

If you do this, you act next round as if you have already taken a full-round action, which will normally leave you just unable to take any actions in your next round. If you would not be able to take a full-round action next round (such as if you are staggered, or if you have already used this ability once this turn), you cannot cast a reactive counterspell.

You can also, instead of a counterspell, cast a signature spell that has only Defend enhancements and general enhancements.

 

[JohnSnow]

Okay Ryan, I hope you don't think I'm a heretic for doing this, but your Elements of Magic - Revised attracted quite a bit of attention over on the Iron Heroes boards. As you might have heard, a lot of the people who were otherwise quite enthusiastic about IH weren't overly thrilled with its magic system. So we started coming up with alternatives. Other systems were suggested, and one of our regulars (Sean 'Malachius Invictus' Laney) worked up an IH modification for Elements of Magic - Revised. And while I liked it, I thought it was a bit "complicated" for my tastes (not to mention that I hate magic points).

So I started mucking around with adapting other systems - Black Company, Midnight, Thieves' World, Skill-based spellcasting from Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide, and more. I was compiling information to create a flexible system that would use a spellcasting skill and feats that granted spell access. Then I saw Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth. And you've basically gone and done the work for me - thanks!

However, I do have a few questions.

1. 10 "spellcasting skills" seems like a lot. That basically means most casters will only be able to max out a few skills. That's thematically nice in a sense, but prevents really "broad" spellcasters. I'm considering lumping the tradition skills together as a "skill group" (an IH concept), or possibly reducing to one spellcasting skill and making the "skills" spell types that become available if you have the right tradition feat. Any thoughts?

2. Iron Heroes characters get a LOT of feats. Okay, most of them don't get many more than d20 Modern characters, but it's a LOT compared to the D&D classes. Any balance issues with this system from characters getting more feats?

3. Just a whacky question: how would you cover spellcasters who can manipulate weather to produce, oh, a stiff wind, or a snowstorm, or something of that nature? Just curious.

Do you think Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth is a reasonable magic system for something like Iron Heroes? Or do you think the magic is too good. I like the casting check, and could easily see implementing either Drain (subdual damage equal to EOM:ME spell level/2) or some other mechanic to reign spellcasters in if necessary.

So do I have your permission to make some modifications to the system to make it work for Iron Heroes and share those rules? (I'd give you full credit for the system of course, and direct interested parties to pick up EoM: ME). What do you think of the whole idea?

 

[RangerWickett]

First, understand that I'm almost completely unfamiliar with Iron Heroes. I haven't even seen a copy of the book. I just know a few things folks have talked about, namely that it's geared much more toward physical combat than to magic. Bear that in mind, since I'm just going to have to guess what's a decent power level for magic in that system.

1. 10 "spellcasting skills" seems like a lot. That basically means most casters will only be able to max out a few skills. That's thematically nice in a sense, but prevents really "broad" spellcasters. I'm considering lumping the tradition skills together as a "skill group" (an IH concept), or possibly reducing to one spellcasting skill and making the "skills" spell types that become available if you have the right tradition feat. Any thoughts?

Do any classes in IH get 8 skill points per level? If so, that class, with a high Intelligence, ought to work as a full-spectrum wizard. Otherwise, . . . well, part of the balance of the rules is that your average character has to sacrifice his other abilities to gain magic.

Honestly, unless IH has revamped the importance of other skills, the main cost in getting magic is the feat, not the skill points. Most people barely batted an eye at spending a few skill points to gain the ability to levitate objects or grant themselves a stat boost. They were a little more affected by the feat cost, but what I've seen in my own playtest is that most of the players were willing to spend a feat and a few skill points that they weren't going to miss for a single magical ability.

If you started making it cheaper to gain access, people would probably jump at the chance of getting so much versatility so cheaply. Honestly, would you rather spend ranks in Diplomacy, or magical Charm? Jump, or magical Move?

By the way, it was a design choice that low-level Attack spells suck compared to simple weapons. In D&D it's not such a big deal, but in D20 Modern, the damage threshold rule (if you take more than your Con in damage in one hit, you must save or pass out) make 5d6 attack spells much more dangerous than in D&D. At low-level, though, most characters will be better of carrying a gun than shooting Attack spells. In the playtest game, no one took Attack at low level, and only now that they're edging toward 7th level is the primary caster dumping spare skill points into it so he can actually dish out some damage.

2. Iron Heroes characters get a LOT of feats. Okay, most of them don't get many more than d20 Modern characters, but it's a LOT compared to the D&D classes. Any balance issues with this system from characters getting more feats?

Perhaps. Again, I'm not familiar with the power level of IH, but in D&D, giving up a feat is hard if you're planning to be a combat character. In d20 Modern it's a bit easier, since you get so many. If IH gives even more feats, you might want to require a slightly higher cost. Perhaps require a feat to gain access to any magic at all, or perhaps require the 'Arcane Skills' feat as a prereq for tradition feats.

To use a term from Magic: the Gathering parlance, Mythic Earth was 'aggressively costed' for d20 Modern, meaning that I was willing to risk it being a little more powerful than other, non-magical options. I felt this was balanced by the chance of spell failure, and the limited number of times you could easily use magic in a day compared to, say, shooting a gun or using Diplomacy.

Compared to D&D, the power level's a little lower, since I didn't want the system to overshadow the quite well-entrenched core magic.

For IH . . . I dunno. Do you want magic to overshadow the combat system?

3. Just a whacky question: how would you cover spellcasters who can manipulate weather to produce, oh, a stiff wind, or a snowstorm, or something of that nature? Just curious.

Create, probably with the Elemental Focus feat. I'm pretty sure IH doesn't use Purchase DCs, but you could still probably use D20 Modern cost guidelines with Create. How much would a strong wind cost to create? Figure out how much a big fan would be. A snowstorm? Up the DC. Create is one of the hardest ones to handle accurately, and requires a lot of adjudication. Always feel free to eyeball it and say 'This feels like it'd be an Nth level spell.'

Also, you could create a tradition feat specifically for a wind mage, that granted Create as a class skill, but gave him a penalty to creating things that aren't wind-based.

Do you think Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth is a reasonable magic system for something like Iron Heroes? Or do you think the magic is too good. I like the casting check, and could easily see implementing either Drain (subdual damage equal to EOM:ME spell level/2) or some other mechanic to reign spellcasters in if necessary.

So do I have your permission to make some modifications to the system to make it work for Iron Heroes and share those rules? (I'd give you full credit for the system of course, and direct interested parties to pick up EoM: ME). What do you think of the whole idea?

I'm highly intrigued. Also, as the rules are all Open Content, you can do what you wish with them, with my blessing. I'd need to know more about IH to know how powerful it is, and how best to rachet the power level up or down as needed. But hey, I've heard lots of great things about IH, so the association of Mythic Earth with it pleases me.

 

[JohnSnow]

Ryan, thanks for the quick response. I wanted to get back to you as soon as possible. So, let's get to it:

I just know a few things folks have talked about, namely that it's geared much more toward physical combat than to magic. Bear that in mind, since I'm just going to have to guess what's a decent power level for magic in that system.

I can help a little. The theory (theory, mind you) is that IH is about combat with magic being a secondary consideration. Essentially, characters in IH are supposed to be equivalently powerful to their D&D counterparts without needing any magic items. Basically, the IH classes have special abilities so that they can take on CR-appropriate challenges without owning any magic gear ("It is not the sword, but the arm that wields it...") So magic shouldn't be as capable as it is in the core rules.

That said, the general consensus of most of us (the fans on the IH boards) is that the magic system in the book doesn't capture the magic flavor we want. I bought into IH so I could ditch magic items (most specifically the "christmas tree effect" so common in D&D) - not make it so that nobody wants to play a spellcaster. And a balance that would work for d20 Modern sounds about right to me. Iron Heroes author Mike Mearls wasn't totally satisfied with the system in the book. He suggested that one option for replacing the Arcanist was to just import the Magister from Arcana Evolved, complete with his spells, so I imagine anything about comparable to a core rules caster is fine. That said, the Magister doesn't quite "do it" for me, so I ditched that idea.

Do any classes in IH get 8 skill points per level? If so, that class, with a high Intelligence, ought to work as a full-spectrum wizard. Otherwise, . . . well, part of the balance of the rules is that your average character has to sacrifice his other abilities to gain magic.

Quick primer: Iron Heroes uses a combination of more skill points all around and skill groups that reduce the cost of acquiring your "core" skills. So for example, for classes with the "Perception" skill group, one rank in Perception buys a rank each in Spot and Listen. There are no cross-class skills any more. The skill groups make it so that characters have an incentive to get their key skills but still have room for some variety.

The default Arcanist gets 8 skill points, and most arcanists would burn 4 to acquire the Academia, Mysticism, Social and Theatrics skill groups (the only ones they get). One with a 16 Int would have 7 other skills to pick from...Considering that, I guess it's fine, but part of the idea is to have characters who are useful without their magic (and can have some "out of character" skills). Although a dedicated caster could easily forego a skill group or two. I dunno, it's worth thinking about.

If you started making it cheaper to gain access, people would probably jump at the chance of getting so much versatility so cheaply. Honestly, would you rather spend ranks in Diplomacy, or magical Charm? Jump, or magical Move?

A reasonable point, and my thought would be to leave them as separate skills for most classes (who probably wouldn't take the feats anyway), but potentially to allow the arcanist to take two of them as a "skill group" effectively cutting the cost in half.

By the way, it was a design choice that low-level Attack spells suck compared to simple weapons. In D&D it's not such a big deal, but in D20 Modern, the damage threshold rule (if you take more than your Con in damage in one hit, you must save or pass out) make 5d6 attack spells much more dangerous than in D&D. At low-level, though, most characters will be better of carrying a gun than shooting Attack spells. In the playtest game, no one took Attack at low level, and only now that they're edging toward 7th level is the primary caster dumping spare skill points into it so he can actually dish out some damage.

It's a design choice I like, and one that will keep the focus on the fighting classes in Iron Heroes. Spellcasters should be useful as defense, support, and utility, but less likely to make the other classes obsolete. As an aside, I like the notion of wizards carrying firearms for backup - very Harry Dresden.

Perhaps. Again, I'm not familiar with the power level of IH, but in D&D, giving up a feat is hard if you're planning to be a combat character. In d20 Modern it's a bit easier, since you get so many. If IH gives even more feats, you might want to require a slightly higher cost. Perhaps require a feat to gain access to any magic at all, or perhaps require the 'Arcane Skills' feat as a prereq for tradition feats.

*nod*

IH is about the same power level as D&D. To make up for the lack of items, the classes get more feats (2 at first level, like all humans, plus one every even level.) Several of the classes grant bonus feats, but in only one case (the Man-at-arms) are those not so restricted as to be extremely costly. Very few classes could afford to take more than one or two tradition feats. Combat characters want to spend their feats on combat. A few men-at-arms might opt for a tradition feat, and they've got the skill points to make use of it, but they'd be sacrificing their non-magical flexibility. For Hunters, the sacrifice would make them less Hunter and more "D&D Ranger." So I'd guess the classes most likely to use magic are Arcanists, Men-at-Arms (IH's JoaT class), and maybe Executioners, Hunters & Thieves. Although those classes would become much more "ninja, ranger and bard" if they did that.

To use a term from Magic: the Gathering parlance, Mythic Earth was 'aggressively costed' for d20 Modern, meaning that I was willing to risk it being a little more powerful than other, non-magical options. I felt this was balanced by the chance of spell failure, and the limited number of times you could easily use magic in a day compared to, say, shooting a gun or using Diplomacy.

Compared to D&D, the power level's a little lower, since I didn't want the system to overshadow the quite well-entrenched core magic.

For IH . . . I dunno. Do you want magic to overshadow the combat system?

No, I don't want the magic to overshadow the combat system. However, I agree with you that I think its greater power is largely balanced by the chance of spell failure and the limited number of times you could easily use magic. I might make it a little more draining by stealing the drain mechanic from Green Ronin's Thieves' World or Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide - basically all spells deal subdual damage (either on a marginal failure or all the time). In this system, I'd divide the spell level by 2 and round up...so 1st and 2nd do 1 point, and so on.

That also provides an easy carrot to hand to those rolling a natural 20 - it does no drain. Just one idea.

I'm highly intrigued. Also, as the rules are all Open Content, you can do what you wish with them, with my blessing. I'd need to know more about IH to know how powerful it is, and how best to rachet the power level up or down as needed. But hey, I've heard lots of great things about IH, so the association of Mythic Earth with it pleases me.

Well, I'm going to go ahead and do the legwork on adapting ME to Iron Heroes for my own campaign. I was about to go to the effort of doing something similar to what you've already done (both for IH and for my d20 Modern games). Personally, I'll freely admit to disliking the Core Rules magic system. However, if I can piggyback on your work so I don't have to start from scratch, I'm all for that. Any chance to pick your brain on rules mods would be appreciated though.

Let's see what I can come up with.

 

[genshou]

You could do that, sure. Honestly, I just didn't include it because I don't think charged items are interesting narrativistically or mechanically. I prefer magic items to be either strictly one-use, or something you can use forever. The half-way point of things like wands just irritate the hell out of me. I had forgotten about the die degradation, which is an okay idea, and easier to deal with than tracking charges for all your items, but I still don't see the point.

How often, in pre-D&D fantasy literature, were there items that had limited charges? Shopping in my mind is not what makes gaming fun. Sure, tricking out your character with the best gear can be cool, but once you have good gear, you ought to be able to keep it.

So yeah, there were a fair number of core rule things I could have converted for Mythic Earth (and many of them I did convert for EOM-R), but I decided some of them weren't worth keeping. You can accomplish effectively the same sort of things with less book-keeping.

I mean, hell, you could, if you wanted, create an item that gained charges based on how long a character of a given class possessed it, and then expended charges at different rates based on the phase of the moon. That would be much more interesting than simply having 50 charges and ticking them off as you use them.

The thing about die-degradation is that is effectively worth as much as a 50-charge item, but there's no way to know how many total uses it will have when you make it, or how many uses it has left. It's like keeping a flashlight in the trunk of your car. If you use it frequently, you risk having the battery run out at a dreadfully inopportune moment, because you usually have no way to check how much power is remaining.

There are plenty of mythological examples of magic given to a character which has a limit to the number of times it can be used. Probably the most classic example is a genie's lamp. The difference with die-degradation is that you never know exactly how much more use you're going to get out of it, like a light bulb.

 

[genshou]

Good Afternoon, All,

I hope that Rangerwickett might see this and take the time to answer, but I also welcome the opinion of others on these boards.

The magic system detailed Mythic Earth - Elements Of Magic is pretty flexible, but I do have two questions regarding magical effects that I'd like to run by the group here.

1. How would I go about representing mage duels? In particular, a mage duel in which both mages continue to throw energy into a "manna bank" or "glowing disk" created by the duel to keep the captured energy from exploding until one fails his check and the disk unloads damage on the mage that failed? Any suggestions would be welcome.

Treat it like magical tennis. Each round, the casters must take a full-round action to cast an Attack spell strictly for the purpose of the duel (following all normal rules for spellcasting, eg V/S components, Concentration checks if distracted, etc.). They make a magical skill check to cast the spell as normal. If the spell is successful, add the levels spent on the spell by both sides to a running total of "pooled" magical energy. If one competitor or the other fails their spellcasting check (ie, fails to cast the spell), they automatically fail the competition immediately. If both competitors fail their checks, they both fail and the magical backlash affects them both immediately. However, if both competitors succeed on their spellcasting checks, they each roll 1d20 and add the number of levels they spent on their Attack spell that round. In the case of a tie, flip a coin to determine the winner. Now the winner for each round advances in points as per tennis. When one competitor or the other is the winner of the "match", or when one or the other fails a spellcasting check, divide the pooled total of contributed levels by 10, and deal that number of d6 as raw magical damage to the loser(s) as the collected energy backlashes at them.

Does that make sense?

 

[Verequus]

I need an example - the last sentences lost me.

 

[Cheiromancer]

If you are in a fantasy setting, how high a level do you have to be to revive a creature who has been dead for almost a year? I'm looking at the +30 modifier for Revive, Greater, and I'm guessing that means you need 30 ranks of cure. 25 if you overcast. Or 22nd level if you overcast. 4500 craft points comes out to 90 000 gp.

Is that right?

 

[RangerWickett]

15th, actually. If you're a mage, the Improved Spell Power ability lets you cast spells up to 10 levels above your ranks. I didn't specifically include one, but if you had an Animism-esque tradition feat, you could use that to briefly gain 2 extra ranks in Cure. So at 15th level you could have 18 ranks of Cure, and use Improved Spell Power and animism to let you cast a 30th level spell.

Of course, since the spellcasting DC is 40, you're going to want some assistance to make it easier. You've got a +20 bonus from your ranks (including animism). As a mage you should have tradition specialization for an extra +1, and if you spent two feats on Elemental Focus and Greater Elemental Focus (life and death), you could get +2. Spend 10 minutes to cast the spell, and you get another +2 bonus.

So we have a shaman who focuses on powers over the interaction of life and death, and when he's 15th level, he has a +25 bonus to his skill check to raise someone from the dead even if they've been gone for as much as a year. He succeeds half the time (since he can fail by 5 and still get the spell off). Heck, if he spends another feat to pick up the fantasy setting's equivalent of Christian Healer, he gets another +2 to his check. Of course, when he finishes the spell he'll take 5d4 points of Strength burn. A Str 8 mage will end up taking an average of 5 points of Con burn too, as he knocks out all his Strength.

As for 'Epic' Revive . . . well, that's supposed to be epic. But you could always try it with a ritual.

 

[genshou]

I need an example - the last sentences lost me.

Got it–I'll work out a couple of examples that should illustrate this a little better.