Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer

[Kemrain]

Magical Calling [Tradition]
Your skills with a single spell list improve even as you study other arts.
Benefit: Choose one spell list or magical skill you know. When casting spells that uses only that spell list and general enhancements, your MP Limit is equal to your character level (including level adjustments from powerful races). For example, Kathor the Linewalker, a Mage 3/Fighter 8 chooses this feat and picks Evoke Balance. Though normally his MP Limit is 3, he could cast Evoke Balance 10/Gen 1.

If you choose a magical skill for this feat, you can still spend no more MP than how many ranks you have of that skill.
Special: You may choose this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different spell list. You can use your higher MP Limit to cast spells that use any spell lists chosen for this feat.

Taking my idea and running somepace I never anticipated. I like this feat, RW, and I think it's fair and balanced in every regard. Given that Kathor can cast (gonna take a guess here) his Evoke Balance 10/Gen 1 spell exactly once per day, and that leaves (again with the guess) him with 6 MP, I don't see how this could be unbalanced. Take into consiteration the fact that he isn't casting a spell with more MP than he has Character Levels, and still can't (unless he uses those tasty rules from the Lycean Arcana Teaser... Mmmmm.)

I actually think +4 is a fair compromise.

For one Spell List? I must disagree. If the spell added to your MP limit for an entire Action Type, I would agree that +4 (upto but not exceeding your Character Level) was fair. For one List, at the cost of a feat, Max power is reqired to keep it worth it. Especially since, until 4th level, a Mage doesn't even have 20MP. This is Versatility, and Power at the expense of Endurance. Fair trade in my book.

For one Spell List, Upto Character Level.
For one Spell Action, +4 to MP Limit, Upto Character Level.
For any Spell List, +1 to MP Limit, Upto Character Level.

Is the third option a fair one? What if the extra MP could only be spent on General Enhancements?

Would a class that, every other level, gave either +1 Caster Level, or +1 to MP Limit be fair? How much less powerful than a Mage of Equal level would this class be? What might be given in compensation?

- Kemrian the Enjoying this Thread.

 

[Verequus]

Two addendums to my post above:
1. It isn't clear, if Spell List Specialist feat can be used several times at once. For example, I have chosen three Evoke [Element] lists and create a Evoke A 2/Evoke B 2/Evoke C 2/Gen X spell. Can I pay 3 MP less than usual? If yes, would that be unbalancing? If yes, my proposal above would weaken it.

2. For those unfamiliar with Upper_Krusts CR-system: He rates a feat to be worth a +0.2 CR and integrated spellcasting levels of a wizard as +0.44 and of a cleric as +0.37. Because he didn't rate psionics and my belief, that mages are of similar power as psions, I estimate an integrated mage spellcasting level as +0.40. (Integrated spellcasting means the same like "Able to cast spell like a seventh level sorcerer.".)

As conclusion, two feats would be worth a spellcasting level, which stacks and behaves like a normal spellcasting level gained through a prestige class. One feat alone increases the spellcasting ability by one half, which still yields an increase of MP and the access to one spell list (ignoring the first two levels). So one feat alone increases not only the caster level, but does the job of Extra Magic Points and Extra Spell List, too - except that Extra Magic Points yields 2 or 1 point less in the low caster levels, but is slightly better with 0.5 MP more on average in the higher levels. Taking both feats two times scales only this situation.

This means, that either Extra Magic Points and Extra Spell List are underpowered or one shouldn't allow the increase of the spell caster level (with increase of MP and access to new spell lists) per feat, doesn't it?

 

[RangerWickett]

All respect to UK, but I think his numbers are off. Or else his math is doing something I don't understand.

I'm a 20th level mage. If you suddenly take away my spellcasting abilities, I lose much more than 8.8 levels of effectiveness. I end up maybe about as strong as a 6th or 7th level fighter.

 

[Verequus]

RW, while you seem to have read v4 or even v5 of his system, you miss at least two things (UK is the great expert, not me), which make a 20th level mage more powerful without his spellcasting abilities than a 7th level fighter.

At first, let's look, how are both the 7th level fighter and the 20th level mage rated at full power. Ignoring the small discrepancies in power of the different classes, we have a CR of 7 and 20, respectively. Subtracting 8 from 20 (this equals spending all available MPs), we still have a CR 12 for the mage. The mage has more hit dice (even if they are smaller) and has more wealth than the 7th level wizard. I'll point UK to this thread - maybe he knows something more.

On another note, RW: What do think of this chage of weapon handling? http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103168

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi RangerWickett!

All respect to UK, but I think his numbers are off. Or else his math is doing something I don't understand.

See below, it could be you are not taking into account the secondary effects of removing spellcasting ability.

I'm a 20th level mage. If you suddenly take away my spellcasting abilities, I lose much more than 8.8 levels of effectiveness. I end up maybe about as strong as a 6th or 7th level fighter.

Remember the +8.8 value is attributed to spellcasting alone. It does not incorporate feats and/or magic equipment that augment spellcasting which would for the most part be rendered useless if you anulled the spellcasting abilities.

If you want to make a fair appraisal, take a 20th-level Sorceror, remove spellcasting abilities, give it 20th-level Fighter equipment and build ability scores and feats around martial capacity and set it against an 11th-level character.

 

[The Goblin King]

Hello all. I am a little unclear about what exactly the limits of Illusion are. I am trying to start up a game and one of the characters is going to be an illusion specialist.

1) Nightmare Incarnate says use the stats for any creature. If the mage created an illusion of a Solar would you use the creatures number of attacks?

2) Illusion Nature says that the illusions are partly real. Could one have an illusionary servant do stuff like open doors?

3) Could you give your Illusion Life/Nature warrior a real sword to fight with?

 

[Verequus]

Wow. You have a lot of good questions, I'd like to have asked myselves. Sorry, that I can't answer those except No. 2, but you have overlooked other:

1. How many hit points/hit dice has an illusion? Gives the interaction through hacking a save to the attacker, even if Illusion Life is used? Have illusions themselves saves?

2. If you duplicate spells, the amount of MP is at max the same amount of MP spent on Illusion lists? What, if I create a spellcasting illusion? How do I the capabilities of range, area and other spell effects?

3. And my answer to No. 2 would be: Yes, I'd allow it. But the real question is, do I have to use Illusion Nature for that?

 

[The Goblin King]

Wow. You have a lot of good questions, I'd like to have asked myselves. Sorry, that I can't answer those except No. 2, but you have overlooked other:

1. How many hit points/hit dice has an illusion? Gives the interaction through hacking a save to the attacker, even if Illusion Life is used? Have illusions themselves saves?

2. If you duplicate spells, the amount of MP is at max the same amount of MP spent on Illusion lists? What, if I create a spellcasting illusion? How do I the capabilities of range, area and other spell effects?

I was going to assume that your illusion doesn't have hit points. Its like a hologram so you can't kill it, just dispel it. Actually, the hologram analogy works pretty well. You can create anything you want. With a holodeck, err, I mean with Illusion Nature you can make the hologram interact with real things. Your hologram can't cast spells at all. Its not real. Buuuut, with some sneaky magicking you could make it appear as though your illusion is casting Fireball by adding Evoke. Clever, eh?

3. And my answer to No. 2 would be: Yes, I'd allow it. But the real question is, do I have to use Illusion Nature for that?

I'm pretty sure you would need Nature unless you did some kind of combo with Move Force to make it only appear as though a creature opened the door.

 

[The Goblin King]

To answer some of my own questions:

1) Nightmare Incarnate says use the stats for any creature. If the mage created an illusion of a Solar would you use the creatures number of attacks?

2) Illusion Nature says that the illusions are partly real. Could one have an illusionary servant do stuff like open doors?

3) Could you give your Illusion Life/Nature warrior a real sword to fight with?

2) I'm pretty sure they could.

3) I would say no. The illusion would be too weak to use a real sword properly. Allowing it would effectively be short-circuiting Illusion Force.

1) Still not clear on this one. Perhaps limit number of attacks based on caster? An illusionary Solar with 5 attacks seems a bit much. On the Other Hand: thats 5 saves to disbelive isn't it?

 

[Archus]

Kemrain's explanation is correct. Regardless of how much damage the initial Evoke Acid spell does, you can spend 1 MP to have acid cling to things struck for another round, doing 1d6 damage. The benefit of this is that the damage is enduring, so it forces spellcasters to make Concentration checks without having to ready an action to hit them as they start casting.

I've been trying to figure out why I'd use the Acid's side effect. I can buy 1d6 Enduring Damage each round for 1 minute for 4 MP, or 4 rounds of 1d6 Acid Side effect for 4 MP. Is the acid side effect better because you don't have to make an attack roll or the target doesn't get a reflex save? If that is the case the Acid damage still doesn't seem that great since they can take an action to scrape or wash it off and end the damage, where the reflex save would keep going.

I do, however, very much like Primitive Screwhead's idea, since it evokes memories of Aliens and their acid blood chewing through steel.

Reducing hardness would be nice.