Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer

Archus

Explorer
Spellcaster Ability Scores

Overall I love EoMR, but I've been wondering why all of the spellcasters use Charisma as the Spell Save DC modifier, Intelligence for the Signature spells, and Wisdom for most of the skills. While this makes them spread their abilities around to all of the non-physical, it does encourage really charming and Intelligent Mages. The skill bonus is more easily offset by ranks than the Save DC and you can spend a feat to get 4 more signature spells or just prepare a few more spells in advance.

You can take Spell List Focus to get a +2 to the DC of your spells, but I've noticed that that usually isn't enough. In general spells can be pretty damn easy to resist in D&D (I imagine I'll have spells to reduce saves though). Have you considered allowing spellcasters to pick the primary ability (Int, Wis, Cha) used by their tradition and have that effect Saves and Signature spells? You would still have incentive to get intelligence for skill points, wisdom for will save, all stats for skill bonuses..... I suppose what you have done finally make Charisma a non-dump stat for anyone wielding offensive magic.

Maybe I've convinced myself there isn't a problem.
 

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The Goblin King said:
Hello all. I am a little unclear about what exactly the limits of Illusion are. I am trying to start up a game and one of the characters is going to be an illusion specialist.

1) Nightmare Incarnate says use the stats for any creature. If the mage created an illusion of a Solar would you use the creatures number of attacks?

2) Illusion Nature says that the illusions are partly real. Could one have an illusionary servant do stuff like open doors?

3) Could you give your Illusion Life/Nature warrior a real sword to fight with?

I'm going to include the following revision to Illusion in Lyceian Arcana, as well as put it up as a freebie. Basically, Illusion Force could be broken far too easily.

Believed Damage is Real. Force allows you to make illusions deal actual damage. You can only use Illusion Force if you also know Create Force, and only on illusions that have a created sensory component.

An illusion can hit any number of creatures each round, though it can only 'hit' once per round. Illusionary creatures do not need to make attack rolls, and illusory dangerous objects or energy sources cannot be dodged. An illusion can 'hit' all creatures in its area of effect, though if the illusion doesn't look like it should be dealing damage, the creature may be granted a +2 or greater bonus to its Will save to disbelieve. An illusion of a duck that deals 5d6 damage per round to everything in a 30-ft. radius would be too strange for most people to believe.

If a creature is hit by this illusion, it takes 1d6 points of damage for each MP spent on Illusion for this spell. For a simple Force illusion, 20% of this damage is real, and the rest is nonlethal. For a standard Force illusion, 40% is real, and 60% is real for a complex Force illusion. The creature is allowed a Will save to disbelieve, just as with any illusion. If it disbelieves, it takes no damage, and any previous nonlethal damage it had taken from the spell vanishes.

Even with Illusion Force, an illusion cannot harm mindless creatures, nor can it harm inanimate objects.

Illusion is Partly Real. Nature allows you to provide some actual matter to your illusions. You can only use Illusion Nature if you also know Create Nature, and only on illusions that have a tactile component. If you do, an illusion with a tactile component is actually 20% real. A partially real illusory bridge can support 20% as much weight as it ought to, for example. These partially real illusions cannot deal damage, however. For standard illusions, it is 40% real, and 60% real for complex.

An illusion with Illusion Nature can carry or move real objects, but with a Strength of 1 for Simple, 2 for standard, and 5 for complex. It cannot use real objects to deal damage by attacking; the illusion is simply incapable of generating enough impact, though it could drop objects or otherwise create hazards.

Resisting Illusions: For the purposes of disbelieving, illusions in Elements of Magic function much the same as in the core rules. A creature that studies an illusion or interacts with it is automatically allowed a saving throw to disbelieve. A creature that is given absolute proof that an illusion is not real automatically disbelieves it. Additionally, if a creature is ‘hit’ by an illusion and should take damage, it automatically makes a Will save to disbelieve. Whether it succeeds or fails, a creature cannot take damage from an illusion unless the spell includes Illusion Force, though it may temporarily believe it is injured.

If an invisible creature deals damage to you, you can automatically disbelieve it. If an invisible creature deals damage to a creature other than you in your line of sight, you are automatically allowed a saving throw with a +4 bonus. Also, if you resist a non-damaging spell cast by an invisible creature, you get a save to disbelieve with a +4 bonus. Similar saves are allowed in the cases of blind creatures being attacked my enemies affected by illusions that make them silent, and so on with other senses.


Tell me what you think. Does it address the concerns people had?

Nightmare Incarnate will have to be changed to this:

Nightmare Incarnate
Illusion Force 5/Light 1/Gen 2
Total MP: 8
Range: Short (30 ft.)
Duration: One minute
Area of Effect: 10-ft. radius circle
This spell creates an image of a horrifying spectral creature, barely visible, which attacks all creatures in the area of effect, dealing 6d6 points of damage each round, 60% of which is real, 40% of which is nonlethal. Each round, creatures in the area of effect may make a Will save to disbelieve. Those who do take no damage, and negate any previous nonlethal damage they had taken from the spell. The creature seems completely invincible, and does not respond to creatures except to attack.

Costs: 1 MP standard visual, 5 MP complex force, 1 MP range, 1 MP area.


And then, just to show that you can't abuse the rules anymore, in honor of Halloween I present:

Elm Street Terror
Illusion Force 5/Illusion Life 5/Ice 4/Lava 1/Lightning 1/Ooze 1/Gen 3
Total MP: 20
Range: Short (30 ft.)
Duration: One minute
Area of Effect: 20-ft. radius circle
This spell can only be cast by a mage who knows all the illusion spell lists for the cardinal elements, plus Illusion Space, Illusion Time, and Illusion Force, and who has the Illusion Specialist feat.

This illusion is multilayered, reactive, and terrifying. The basic premise is that creatures in the area of effect are subjected to nightmarish scenarios of monsters and crazed killers, which deal 17d6 points of damage per round, 60% of which is real, 40% of which is nonlethal.

Because of the Illusion Specialist feat, the spell includes for free a simple Space and Time distortion, which makes the scenario feel like it covers a large room and lasts two minutes. The spell also has free standard visual, auditory, tactile, and olfactory senses. These sensory elements can be disbelieved, but they do not vanish, since the senses are intensified. Also, the free standard Illusion Death effect makes the spell detect as faintly magical, rather than strongly magical.

Each round, creatures in the area of effect may make a Will save to disbelieve. Those who do take no damage, and negate any previous nonlethal damage they had taken from the spell.

Creatures in the area of effect think they are trapped in some sort of nightmare maze, and though they could get free of the area of effect by simply walking 20 ft., unless they think to walk through walls, they will not find a way out.

Costs: 5 MP complex force, 5 MP complex reactive, 7 MP intensify, 1 MP range, 2 MP area.


A tricked out mage could give this thing a DC 28 Will save to disbelieve, meaning your average 20th level Fighter with a +10 Will save would probably die to it, but a 20th level mage with a +20 Will save would make it out with just a little damage.
 

Archus said:
I've been trying to figure out why I'd use the Acid's side effect. I can buy 1d6 Enduring Damage each round for 1 minute for 4 MP, or 4 rounds of 1d6 Acid Side effect for 4 MP. Is the acid side effect better because you don't have to make an attack roll or the target doesn't get a reflex save? If that is the case the Acid damage still doesn't seem that great since they can take an action to scrape or wash it off and end the damage, where the reflex save would keep going.

Reducing hardness would be nice.

You have a good point. I suppose instead Evoke Acid's enhancements could be:

Ambient: If you purchase an enduring damage enhancement, it costs half as many MP. However, the acid can be washed off with about one gallon of water for every 5-ft. square of area. A creature can scrape acid off itself or a comparably-sized object as a full-round action, though this merely transfers the acid to the scraping implement, which will probably be ruined.
Mild: The acid ignores the hardness of objects.
Moderate: The acid ignores the hardness of objects, and its damage is not halved, unlike normal energy damage.

There'd be no major or extreme. Sound good? I think that captures better the classic horror of being burned by acid - the idea that it just keeps burning. You're encouraged to use the long-duration version of Evoke Acid spells.

I just realized that Evoke Ice is the best way to kill small creatures. If the creature's Strength score is less than 10, it can never get out if you freeze it.
 

RuleMaster said:
  • If you are in an antimagic zone, you have to beat the SR for casting a spell. But what about supernatural abilities? Those don't have a caster level - how can they beat the SR? Never? Are the hit dice the caster level? What if you have already a caster level? Will it be used, if the caster level is greater than the amount of hit dice?

I'll have to fix this officially, but here's my initial thought: If the creature has spell-like abilities, use its caster level for all effects, or use its challenge rating, whichever is higher. I personally hate using Challenge Rating as an in-game modifier, but it's a more appropriate number than hit dice. Or maybe 1/2 its hit dice. Hmm.

  • Can a Live-Sword cut a living being? Will it simply go through the victim? What's with clothes?

If you mean a sword created with Create Life, then it won't go through someone, but it won't deal damage. It could damage objects like clothes, though you'd actually have to use a Sunder. Of course, the flavor of a sword (or arrow) of life energy just passing harmlessly through living creatures is pretty cool, so if the player wanted it, I'd allow it, though you'd want to be consistent.

  • Dispel Magic - Can certain spells excluded from dispelling and the anti-magic field? Can the signature of a certain mage be the trigger?

Not sure exactly what you mean here.

  • Enlarge Person is how simulated?

I suppose you could use the Half-Giant in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, which would require Transform Humanoid 0. Or you could say that a large human is a CR 1 creature (+4 Strength, -2 Dex, reach, size penalties to attacks and AC), in which can it'd require Transform Humanoid 2. As it is in the core rules, Enlarge Person violates the normal guidelines of changing sizes, because there's no balanced way to make a fighter large at 1st level.

  • How can permanent magic effects without affectable by Dispel Magic created? For example, immortality or any form of crossbreeding?


  • Drain Time: Partial actions have been removed from the game. You should replace the description with "The 'start full-round action' standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw."

Affirmative.

  • Maximize Spell: Should this metamagic feat still possible? After putting at least 15 MP into damage, the average damage result will be lower than the maximized version. Because the probability for average damage (or near of that) increases with more and more dice dramatically, such a feat would be must-have for archmages (level 17+).

Nope. I don't like the feat. If you want to use it, I can't stop you, but I won't endorse it. 9d6 maximized is 54, 15d6 average is 52.5. 14d6 max is 84, 20d6 average is 70. Though the spell is useless except for Heal and Evoke, it just doesn't seem right to me. I mean, there's already a way to do more damage: spend more MP. You don't need two different ways.


  • Teleport - how is the velocity and the direction of the subject changed? Can this simply be chosen? Personally, I would let only the direction of the subject be changed, not the velocity, because this could be abused as Move Death 5, except that the target can still move after the slow down. But what does this mean: "If a creature or object is stilled, it cannot move on its own power from its current spot." Hangs a flying creature mid-air?

In general, I think it's agreed that teleportation is smart, and it breaks the laws of physics. Teleporting creatures and objects retain their same position and velocity relative to their frame of reference. If you're running 10 miles per hour on a track, and then you were teleported into an airplane flying 300 miles an hour, you'd be traveling 10 miles per hour relative to the floor of the planes. You would not slam into the back of the plane a speed of 290 miles per hour.

Move Death does let you make flying creatures just float in mid-air with anchor. Still would cause a creature to fall.

  • Could you please describe round-by-round the casting of a teleport - this line seems to imply, that one has to use at least two rounds: "One time in the spell’s duration, the affected creature can teleport up to the listed distance as a full-round action."

Sorry. Should be a move action. That way you can cast and teleport in the same round.

  • "Example Thirteen: A magical tattoo artist imbues physical enhancements into tattoos. With a tiger tattoo, she grants one customer a permanent +2 Strength using Infuse Earth 1/Gen 1, at a cost of 400 XP to her, and 4000 gp to him." In this example, you charge 4000 gp for 400 XP - that's a factor of 10. Shouldn't the factor be 5 - or 25?

No, it's 10gp per XP. It's explained near the beginning of the Permanent Spells section in Chapter Four, under Permanent Spell Basics.

  • "Reusable Spells: If you know Craft Charged Item and Craft Permanent Spell, you can grant a creature or object the ability to cast a spell. If used on a creature, that creature can cast the spell at will, and you can even grant it the ability to use entire spell lists. If used on an object, you can only give it signature spells, and must set specific conditions for when those spells will trigger." What type of action is "casting at will", what type of action occurs at the triggering? Can a bow be created, which creates a normal arrow every time the string is pulled (this means, one doesn't have to have a quiver)? If this bow can teleport arrows, how many rounds does it take to fire the bow?

Basically, for creatures, you can grant spell-like abilities, which are used as a standard action (if a signature spell) or which take two rounds otherwise.

For objects, a spell can only trigger once per round, but it triggers instantly. Now, for something like a bow that produces arrows, I think it would be fair to say that the bow could create more than one arrow per round, because any given casting of Create Nature 0 could give you a lot of arrows. So yeah, for 1000 XP you could make a bow that never needs arrows.
 

Evoke: Death [Poisen]?

I am currently in an evil type game, and realized that my Cleric has Poisen as a preffered weapon choice... as Heal: Life I can *cure* poisen, but *cause* poisen seems to be missing...

With a bit of house rule territory, perhaps:
Characters with the skills of Knowledge Poisen and Alchemy can create poisens through spell use. The spell costs the total MP * 10 in xp.

Initial portion must include:
Create [Life] 2 enduring
Create [Nature] 1 for the substance
General 1 , 10 minute duration

Individual poisens deals initial damage based on the Evoke Death component. You cannot spend more MP on this component than you have ranks in Alchemy.
The secondary damage is double the initial, but you do not have to pay for it.

For instance, creating viper venom would look like: Total cost, MP 8, XP 80
Create [Life 2] [Nature 1]
General 1
Evoke [Death 4] Ability point damage

Deals initial damage of 1d6 Dex, and secondary damage of 2D6.


In addition, you can chose to trade 1 dice of ability damage for 1 point of ability drain.

What do you think?
{side note, my PC would have to gain 2 lists before being able to do this... not the most preferable route as far as he is concerned....the benefit is that the duration would not be limited to the spell, a target would only recover 1 point of ability damage per day}
 

Kemrain

First Post
Do lists like Abjure/Hex and Infuse/Drain count once or twice towards [Element] Expertise or Mastery?

- Kemrain the Elementary.
 

Archus

Explorer
Kemrain said:
Do lists like Abjure/Hex and Infuse/Drain count once or twice towards [Element] Expertise or Mastery?
- Kemrain the Elementary.
It is my understanding that the list and their reverse are really just one list (none of the iconic mages have the reverse spell lists). So when you take Abjure Force, you have both Abjure and Hex. If that is an accurate statement, they should only count as one list toward Expertise or Mastery.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but it seems organized errata/FAQ info is still a little way off, so I don't even know if I've checked everywhere.

At page 25, it says "Whenever an effect grants energy resistance versus a type of element, that protection also applies to the friendly elements. For example, if you have Shadow Resistance 5, this prevents the first 5 points of damage each time you take shadow, acid, or void damage."

Shouldn't that be shadow, metal, or void damage? Or rather; shadow or void damage as metal isn't energy damage?
 

This is one of the areas where simplicity lost out to flavor. The friendly elements don't always correspond to those of adjacent elements (e.g., if you were to draw a diamond, fire and earth would be adjacent, fire and water would be opposite). It made more sense for creatures of shadow to be unharmed by acid.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Thanks for your quick reply.

I saw in the "notes to self" tread that clarifying this was recently added.

I will use the 2.2 Table instead of the circles in the meanwhile!
 

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