While looking into the Charm list for the above post, I noticed something else that's kind of strange: "Stunned" is apparently considered a worse condition than "Held". Is this because you can still do mental actions while held? Because even so, I think Held is a bit worse on account of being vulnerable to coup de graçe (aka the slitting of the throat).
Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer
Kemrain
First Post
It seems important to note that, while in traditional DnD, Held means Helpless, RW's Held status makes no mention of it. I made the mistake of assuming it was involved, earlier, but looking at it again I'm not sure helpless was ever intended. RW hates Save or Die spells, and Hold Person basically equaits to Save or CdG. Then again, the sleep enhancements provide that effect, but, there's no need for redundancy.Staffan said:
Daze prevents the target from taking physical actions, but he defends himself normally.
Hold prevents them from taking physical actions, takes away their dex bonus, and makes them easier to hit.
Stunned prevents the target from taking any action, physical or mental, takes away their dex bonus, and makes them easier to hit. That's all.
I made assumptions about those myself, until just now, when I read your post above. Got me to look at it, and realise that it does nothig but what it says. Good call.
- Kemrain the Daz..Hel..Alright, Stunned.
Kemrain said:
If being held does not make you helpless, that should be pointed out, especially since it says that you're "immobile". The SRD says that helpless means: "paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." This is also included in the d20 System Guide, which means you can't change it if you want to use the d20 logo.
I can see why he wouldn't want the effect to make people helpless, but if so he should have used another name for it. Being Held comes with a lot of baggage.
I think we shouldn't use the term "caster level", if the "thing" in question shouldn't work like a real caster level increase. EoMR has the term MP limit, which is better in our discussion, because there is no actual spell level. Staffan, you referred in your post several times to it, but you mean actually "spell list". I've replaced that in the quotes accordingly and marked that in boldface.
+2: The Overchannel effect.
Or you could look to the instant Heighten Spell of EoMR at this way: Through the flexible way of forming spells you "research" specifically adapted spells to their level, so they have a certain DC. Moreover, while there are some Metamagic feats incorporated into the rules and therefore aren't available as feats, you have to spend two rounds instead a standard action like psions (unless you spend a certain feat which applies only to a certain spell list), if you want to change a spell on the fly.
Even if it means, that the Fighter 4/Mage 1 succeeds to Charm the BBEG, it will be only for one minute and then he has depleted all MP for the day (except free cantrips). Charm Person may have a lower DC, but a duration of one hour. So, it looks to me, that Mages aren't as powerful as they seemed to be.
+1: There is alreadyStaffan said:
If I think about that, the Practiced Spellcaster has some advantages, if you use option +4.
+2: The Overchannel effect.
You seem to refer to the Metamagic rules: A metamagicked spells takes a higher-level slot, but the save DC stays the same. Suppose, you can choose between a metamagicked spell, which uses a higher slot than normal, and a normal spell, which does the same damage as the metamagicked one. Which one would you choose? The normal spell? That's what I've thought. There is actually a house rule, where a metamagicked spell receives Heighten Spell for free. I would even allow to give Heighten Spell for free to spells, which simply use a higher-level slot than normal - if you use Magic Missile instead Meteor Swarm in a level 9 slot, you should receive somewhat a compensation.
Or you could look to the instant Heighten Spell of EoMR at this way: Through the flexible way of forming spells you "research" specifically adapted spells to their level, so they have a certain DC. Moreover, while there are some Metamagic feats incorporated into the rules and therefore aren't available as feats, you have to spend two rounds instead a standard action like psions (unless you spend a certain feat which applies only to a certain spell list), if you want to change a spell on the fly.
1. add all MP spent on Charm and Compel lists and 2. use this number on the chart to know the HD-limit. 5 MP refer to 10 HD.
But a 5th level mage could do that, too - you can't make a compare so easy. A 5th level mage can't cast Charm Monster, but Charm Monster is the combination of every Charm [Creature] list. Wait, while you have to subtract the Creatures, which are immune to mind-affecting spells in the core, but still it is far more powerful, because there is no HD limit for it and it has a duration of days/level.
Even if it means, that the Fighter 4/Mage 1 succeeds to Charm the BBEG, it will be only for one minute and then he has depleted all MP for the day (except free cantrips). Charm Person may have a lower DC, but a duration of one hour. So, it looks to me, that Mages aren't as powerful as they seemed to be.
RuleMaster said:
In that passage, I was mostly talking about the psionic rules, where there are some instances where you use augmenting a low-level power to get the effects of a higher-level spell. This does not require a feat. For example, psionic dominate is a 4th level power, and affects one humanoid. If you augment it by 2 PP (so it costs the same as a 5th level power), you can also affect an animal, a fey, a giant, a magical beast or a monstrous humanoid. For +4 PP (so, a 6th level power equivalent), you can affect abberations, dragons, elementals, or outsiders. You can also spend points to increase duration, and the number of targets. With the right augmentations, you will have turned the 4th level equivalent of dominate person until dominate monster, but you're still using the same power. EoM works similarly, except that it doesn't make things more powerful by having it affect different stuff (use a different spell list for that). By comparison, a core spellcaster getting an increase in caster level will still only be able to do the same stuff he could before, but better.
I didn't even mention DC. The trouble with adding to the MP limit in EoM is that you not only do things better, you'll be able to do entirely different things.
Actually, I did do my homework on this one. "Held" is a moderate effect, so it costs 2 MP. I spent the other 3 MP on increasing the threshold, for a total of 13 (though some should probably have gone to various general stuff, like duration and range).
I wasn't complaining about mages' power level in general (I'm not familiar enough with EoM to do that). I was just pointing out that increasing MP limit in EoM is a lot more powerful than increasing the caster level for a PHB spellcaster.
RangerWickett
Legend
Kemrain said:
Just hopping in here for a second, allow me to clear this up a bit.
Power Word: Stun is 8th level. Hold Person is 3rd level. Taking aside the lack of saves, I still assumed that stunning would be stronger. And if you don't plan to coup-de-grace, it is, because stunning makes 'em drop their stuff, and be unable to take mental actions.
How would you suggest working up that chain of Charm effects, considering the MP costs involved?
RangerWickett
Legend
What do you think of this feat?
Magical Calling [Tradition]
Your skills with a single spell list improve even as you study other arts.
Benefit: Choose one spell list or magical skill you know. When casting spells that uses only that spell list and general enhancements, your MP Limit is equal to your character level (including level adjustments from powerful races). For example, Kathor the Linewalker, a Mage 3/Fighter 8 chooses this feat and picks Evoke Balance. Though normally his MP Limit is 3, he could cast Evoke Balance 10/Gen 1.
If you choose a magical skill for this feat, you can still spend no more MP than how many ranks you have of that skill.
Special: You may choose this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different spell list. You can use your higher MP Limit to cast spells that use any spell lists chosen for this feat.
The Spell List Specialist feat basically lets you cast spells more powerful than a normal caster of your level could, and is intended for people who have a full caster level progression. Battle mages who want that extra 1d6 damage, or whatever.
This feat is intended for dabblers who still want a strong effect. I wonder if it might be too strong. Consider, though, how much MP a multiclassed character would have available.
I actually think +4 is a fair compromise.
Magical Calling [Tradition]
Your skills with a single spell list improve even as you study other arts.
Benefit: Choose one spell list or magical skill you know. When casting spells that uses only that spell list and general enhancements, your MP Limit is equal to your character level (including level adjustments from powerful races). For example, Kathor the Linewalker, a Mage 3/Fighter 8 chooses this feat and picks Evoke Balance. Though normally his MP Limit is 3, he could cast Evoke Balance 10/Gen 1.
If you choose a magical skill for this feat, you can still spend no more MP than how many ranks you have of that skill.
Special: You may choose this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different spell list. You can use your higher MP Limit to cast spells that use any spell lists chosen for this feat.
The Spell List Specialist feat basically lets you cast spells more powerful than a normal caster of your level could, and is intended for people who have a full caster level progression. Battle mages who want that extra 1d6 damage, or whatever.
This feat is intended for dabblers who still want a strong effect. I wonder if it might be too strong. Consider, though, how much MP a multiclassed character would have available.
I actually think +4 is a fair compromise.
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It seems, that we have to consider to increase only one spell list, like RangerWickett suggested. Or, what I haven't tested, it can only affect spell lists of one action type. A caster level increase affects in the core rules every spell, so if we restrict the improvement some way, it should be similar to the core rules, without "doing entirely different things". RW, maybe the Spell List Specialist feat should go to an action type, then. It would still suffice its spirit.Staffan said:
You are right, this way you get 13 HD. EoMR-spells can't be defined through spent MP and used spell lists clearly enough - that leaves still options open.
I answered that above.
I'd just swap Stun and Hold. While Power Word: Stun is an 8th level spell, there are stunning effects available at much lower levels. The first that comes to mind is not even magic - the monk's Stunning Fist. She can use that as early as 1st level, though it only lasts for one round. There's also the 2nd level spell sound burst that stuns people in a 10-foot burst (in addition to damage), but that's only for one round too. If you look at psionics, you have energy stun that's a 2nd level power, does a small amount of damage, and has a chance of stunning for one round as well (though you have to fail two saves: first the Reflex save for half damage, then a Will save for the stun). There's also, of course, psionic blast that stuns creatures in a 30 ft cone for one round, and can be augmented to have a higher duration.RangerWickett said:
All these ways of stunning have one thing in common: stunning is a brief matter. You get a jolt of stunning, but you shake it off in a round or so. Perhaps stunning doesn't belong in the Charm (Creature) list at all (which is geared toward relatively long-term effects - at least using the basic 1 minute duration plus extensions). It might be better suited to being a side effect of Evoke Sonic or Evoke Lightning - if so, the basic Stun effect should be pretty cheap, but longer stuns should cost more (perhaps 2 MP for basic stun, and 3-4 MP per round's duration increase).
::looks at the actual rules::
Hey, wouldya look at that? Stun already is a side effect of Evoke Lightning. Though I think the duration is a little excessive - 2 rounds per MP seems pretty long compared to the basic stun duration in other parts of the system of 1 round. I think reversing the relationship would work better: 2 MP/round of stun, still with a save each round to negate (I'd have the save turn the stun into daze for current round first though - if you're stunned for 5 rounds, but succeed on your third save, you will be spending a total of 2 rounds stunned, one round dazed, and then be free to act).
Something could also be added to the Compel spell list. After all, the description says "You can even Compel a creature so that it feels in its mind as though it’s being injured," but there's no mention of that in the actual effects you can do with it.
But what about the Charm tree, then? I would either have the make it Dazed/Held/Unconscious, or move Held up to the Strong effect and find something else to fill the Moderate effect with. Hmm... maybe Slowed/Dazed/Held? Nah, that doesn't work either, being slowed gives you a penalty to defense, which dazed does not do. Oh well, that's why you guys get paid for doing this, not me.
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