Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer

[RangerWickett]

Do we have any word on when Lyceian Arcana will be release. Mid may was the last I heard which is now here.

I'm pretty eager to get my hands on it.

Two mitigating factors are delaying it. First, I just graduated, and the few weeks leading up to and following graduation have been hectic, what with me needing to find something to do now that I no longer have to pay thousands of dollars a year to become smart. Part of that includes getting a normal paying job, which takes up most of the time I previously had available to write.

Second, the ENWorld Gamer magazine just came off hiatus, which means I've got that as extra workload. Thankfully I'm mostly just managing the magazine, not writing it myself, but it still takes up a bit of time. Heck, I haven't had a chance yet to reply to the ~15 people who sent me article proposals in the past two days.

So, unfortunately, Lyceian Arcana won't be coming out this month. I've got too much work done on it already to put it off for too long, but I don't want to set a specific date until I know I can make that date. I will try to post teasers every two weeks or so.

 

[RangerWickett]

<trimmed synopsis of old compel options>
The way I see it, Dance, Debauchery and Sing from the old Compel are gone, and with them anything related to requiring a particular action in general.

Am I missing something?

You can use the Compel spell list now to make a person do whatever you want, which ought to cover any of those actions. True, the Charm spell list can only get you general emotions or very broad sorts of actions, but that's its niche. Compel is what you use when you want something specific.

Of course, I'd allow, for flavor's sake, a Charm spell that made people fall asleep instead make them dance, act debauched, or sing, as long as they could be shaken out of it as easily as a person could be awakened from the magical sleep.

 

[RangerWickett]

The base effect of Abjure is to grant some protective benefit. Enhancements almost always have to be purchased to boost AC, Saving Throws, grant DR, grant Energy Resistance, and grant Spell Resistance. The base cantrip offers minimal protection at best.

In some cases, these enhancements really favor certain elements, (like Nature for AC and DR, Force for AC) but in others they are significantly weaker because of the lack of friendly elements (Abjure Nature doesn't do didly for anything BUT Nature when applied to Saving Throws, Energy Resistance, and SR. I hope you can find a tree you need protection from in this case).

Abjure Nature and Abjure Force are each really good for two things. Nature gives great AC and great DR. Force gives great saves and great SR. They are the two default defenses. While Abjure Fire will give you great defenses against all things fire, the amount of elements it protects against is a little limited. With Nature and Force, they protect against all elements, so their drawback is that each one can only protect against two types of attacks, not all types.

Also, I am led to believe that Abure Nature for DR only protects against natural attacks, not all physical attacks. This is a bit confusing and ultimately I think is a place for interpretation, or maybe even some guidance from Ryan on what he intended. If it is all attacks, then drop the 'physical' descriptor and say all attacks instead. If it is just natural attacks, like claws, fists etc, then use 'natural' instead of 'physical' as the descriptor. It makes things more clearly understood since thw word 'physical' can be interpreted a number of ways.

Abjure Nature provides DR against all attacks. The word 'physical' is there to differentiate from 'energy' attacks, since Damage Reduction doesn't apply to energy damage.

Ultimately, I think some of the less intuitively-understood elements, like Life, Death and Nature, need to be clearly defined in their uses for the different spell lists. Some of these are clear, others are cloudy. If that's intentional then great, since we all like a little wriggle room to work with as DMs!

Maybe Ryan's already ahead of the game and will offer more on this in LA.

Wiggle room is good. But here are the guidelines, which I myself may have made a few mistakes on, over the course of the whole book.

Nature governs the world of solid objects that aren't alive, and aren't undead.

Life governs things that are alive.

Death governs things that are undead.

Now, since there are probably a lot more [Life] and [Death] creatures than [Metal] creatures, Abjure Life and Abjure Death are useful when being attacked by creatures. Abjure Metal is mostly useful when you're being hacked at by warriors, but it also helps when those iron golems try to grind you down.

 

[RangerWickett]

First of all, I want to say that I am /very/ impressed with EOM(R). Much
goodness!

Thank you very much. I do intend to look into releasing a patch to address the numerous questions I've been answering.

And now my questions...

My first question is, can you have multiple instances of the same list in the same spell? Take Abjure Force, for instance. Abjure Force can give you a deflection bonus to armor or a saving throw bonus or energy resistance or an energy buffer. Would it be possible to get multiple effects in one casting? If so, would it be created (Create Force 1, Create Force 1), where the first one is giving a deflection bonus and the second one is giving a saving throw bonus? Or would it be Create Force 2 with 1 of it defined as giving the deflection bonus and the other giving the saving throw bonus? (Personally, I would angle towards the second option, at least for reasons below.)

For any sort of option that has a table listing multiple costs and effects, you can't just buy a low-cost option multiple times. For Abjure, if you want a high AC bonus, you have to pay a high MP cost, not several low MP costs. However, if you want a low AC bonus, a low save bonus, and a low DR, you can buy three low effects, because they're from different tables.

For Evoke and Heal, however, you can buy damage or healing multiple times. Those two spell lists progress linearly. Most of the other spell lists progress irregularly.

Create - In Create, we have the Elemental Object enhancement. I have a couple of different questions regarding this. First of all, in a couple of the examples (Mage Armor and Mage Plate), Create Force is used to create armor made of force. But, Elemental Object says, "If you are using Create Death, Force, Life, Space, or Time to create a physical object, you must select this enhancement, because there is no normal physical version of those elements." I read these as creating physical versions of Force. (How else would it give an armor bonus?) So... are the examples wrong or am I thinking of this wrong?

Okay, I see there's been a lot of discussion on this, and I wish I'd replied to it sooner. It's a mistake on my part. You do have to purchase Elemental Object for force objects. I just forgot that when I created 'mage armor.' It ought to cost 3 MP (Create Force 2/Gen 1) and let you get a +6 AC bonus. I made the mistake because I was trying to emulate the core rule Mage Armor spell.

A key thing to remember is that you don't have to pay MP based on the cost of the object you're creating. Instead, you figure out the MP you've paid for enhancements and such, and then look to see whether with that MP cost you can afford the item you want to create. If the MP you're paying is too low, you can choose to spend extra MP on the Create spell, even if you're not getting any specific enhancements.

For instance, say I wanted to create a lightning boat that's forty feet across, and a normal boat would cost 50,000gp. First, I would need an area of effect that's got a 20-ft. radius, to fit my 40-ft. boat. That's 2 MP for the area. Then I need the elemental object enhancement, which is a base of 2 MP, plus 2 more MP, because you have to pay equal to the cost of the area. So far, you have Create Lightning 4/Gen 2.

However, we see that the 4 MP spent on create lightning only lets me get something worth 10,000gp. Since the boat costs more than that, I need to spend an extra 1 MP. I can choose to just waste 1 MP, with no specific enhancement, or I could pick, say, Create Air, to fill my boat with breathable air. Ooh, so now I can have a Lightning Submarine. Create Air 1/Create Lightning 4/Gen 2, with possibly more MP if I want it to last longer than a minute.

Note that you could just as easily use Create Metal 3/Gen 1 to have full plate armor made of elemental metal (with the elemental object enhancement), as opposed to real metal. It would weigh practically nothing. However, Create Force gives you the benefit that it blocks ethereal attacks.

That being said, you'd need to be at least 3rd level in order to do a Create Force 3, with 1 being used for the max GP value and 2 being used for the Elemental Object enhancement. You could use other elements also, but it is the physical representation of the element that is what gives you the armor bonus, right? (On a more... enlightening... note, just think of plate mail made from Create Light. I'm not thinkin' you'd be on the vampires Christmas list. ::grin:: )

Only real sunlight kills vampires. So armor of light might piss 'em off, but that's about it.

Question on the Elemental Weapon... Can you just create an Elemental Weapon out of any element and wield it? Would you have to use the Elemental Object enhancement first? So, if I wanted a force blade, how would I do it? I can think of at least 4 different ways at the moment: (Assuming a 5 MP spell)

You could use Create Force 2/Gen 0 to create a force longsword with the Elemental Object enhancement. If you hit someone with it, it would do 1d8 force damage, not normal damage. If you wanted a 'light saber,' you could use Create Force 2/Create Light 1/Gen 0 to have a force longsword that does +1d6 light damage with each hit.

Or, you can use the elemental weapon enhancement to enhance an existing item. You could cast Create Light 1/Gen 0 on your normal longsword, and it would deal +1d6 light damage per hit.

* Use Elemental Weapon for 3d6 damage, doing no other damage but force, since it isn't in the "form" of anything specific (I didn't use any MP to purchase a GP limit). (But could I hold it? Would it have a physical form?)
* Use 1 MP to create an object up to 100 GP (call it a long sword), 3 MPs to give it extra damage from Elemental Weapon and have another MP for general enhancements. It would do 1d8 as a long sword and +2d6 of force damage. (Again, could I even hold it?)

And variants on above:
* Use Elemental Object (2 MPs) to create the weapon out of force and 3 MPs to give it 2d6 damage. Would only do the 2d6 of force damage, since it isn't in the form of any specific weapon. (Would actually be a physical "thing" to wield.)
* Use 1 MP to create an object up to 100 GP (call it a long sword), 2 MPs for Elemental Object, and 1 MP for Elemental Weapon. Would be a long sword doing 1d8 with an additional +1d6 of force damage.

So basically, could you just create a weapon (not a specific sword like long sword, just a "weapon") that you could wield without using MPs for GP cost or "physical manifestation" only doing the elemental damage? Or would you have to use one or both of the GP costs and physical manifestation (Elemental Object)?

No.

If you pick the Elemental Object enhancement, you have to give the object a real shape of some sort. You can't just hold pure force and have it deal damage. Well, I guess you could create a 'rock' of pure force, and anyone you hit would take 1d3 points of force damage, since that's how much it would hurt to hit someone with a rock.

And last, but not least, another question on Elemental Weapon... I noticed that 1 MP gives you +1d6 damage, 3 MP gives you +2d6 damage, etc. This is the reason that I like option 2 from the first question, since otherwise you could do (Create Force 1, Create Force 1) on your already existing long sword to give it +2d6 damage instead of using (Create Force 3). I guess this isn't just a question, but more of a clarification that needs to be put in either as "You can't have the same list in the same spell twice" or "You can have multiple effects of the same list in the same spell, but the effects can't be duplicated (I.e. can't have 2 separate instances of Abjure Nature 1 in an Abjure Nature 2 spell for an AC bonus of +4 instead of +3 that it would be for a straight Abjure Nature 2 spell). Again, I like option number 2, but it needs to be stated explicitly. (Yes, I do know people who would try to twist it the way things are.)

I think I answered this above.

 

[RangerWickett]

With create [Element], is it possible to create a vessel for the more liquid elements for free. For example, could I use create water or create acid in a simple glass container or would I have to do a create crystal? How about changing some of the properties of the liquid such as increasing its surface tension or making into goo or is this the realm of transform.

Just curious how people would do it.

If you just use create water or acid by itself (or, for that matter, create air, mist, ooze, etc.), the created material just shows up by itself, and will act like matter of that type would act. You would need to use an extra spell list to create a container. Or you could use Elemental Object, and have a 'water cup' holding normal water.

As for making water act differently, that would probably fall under Transform.

 

[RangerWickett]

While we're talking about the Create lists, btw... the wording of Create Light implies that the created object sheds light, but I don't see any problem with just having the light generated from a point in space. I've also thought about whether or not it would be a good idea to allow the light to come from an existing object. If that is allowed, then you have to determine if you can light up attended objects, like the armor of a thief who's trying to hide. I would say that you can make light come from a point in space or an object you create; I'm still ambivalent about other objects. Any thoughts?

Indeed, it was a bit of bad wording on my part. You can have create light emanate from a point in space. However, you cannot create light on an unwilling target, or on its gear.

 

[RangerWickett]

Sorry for the delay.

Oh, I didn't think my answer entirely through. You have to use my rule of thumb: If you throw a rock at an element and the rock won't pass through that element, you don't need Elemental Object. Ooze and Lava are still liquids and won't pass the test. To the Force dilemma: It depends how you view Force - it could be in it natural state intangible like gravity.

Good rule of thumb. And Force is intangible normally. By itself, creating force is kinda pointless, but of all the elements, it has the potential to be the most indestructible.

"The total MP spent on Create lists determines the maximum monetary value." Look at the bold word and then at my example - the best possibility for 5 MP is Elemental Object (2 MP) and 3 MP for +2d6 damage, while you have a long sword with a base damage of 1d8. The maximum monetary value for 5 MP is always 100.000 gp - whatever the cost for a longsword is, you don't need to use extra MP for increasing the gp limit.

BTW, RangerWickett, the unlimited cost for 6 MPs is not good, like the big jump from 4 MP to 5 MP. How about "For every extra MP, the maximum monetary value is doubled.", beginning at 4 MP. And have Macs different keyboards?

When I type, I make heavy use of the Ctrl button plus the arrow keys, so I can shift through sentences or paragraphs quickly. I also use home and end a lot so I can jump around without having to use the mouse. On Macs, the location of the buttons that accomplish the same functions are different, so I'm not as readily able to fiddle around. And the Mac I was using was a laptop, with one of those fingerpad mouses, which I'm not used to. Finally, I miss my right-click button. I don't like Macs for typing.

They are, however, great for art programs.

As to the concern about item value, I don't see how it could be broken. Since you can't permanently create objects anyway, this is mostly just a restriction to keep low-level folks from creating a huge gold statue, slapping it with Illusion Death to make it detect as nonmagical, and selling it. And it means that you've got to spend a bit of extra MP to have that suit of magic adamantine armor. There really aren't that many mundane objects that cost more than 10,000gp, except for boats and castles.

If you show me how it's broken, or overpowered, I will consider changing my stance.

 

[lord_banus]

I was just poking holes in the system and was wondering how I might be able to create intelligent items. I can see some possibilities but by the straight rules there is no clear path. Anyone got any ideas about the best way to do it?

thanks

 

[RangerWickett]

I hadn't actually done any specific work on figuring out the costs for such things, but I suppose you could make it using the creature creation rules. Figure out what the challenge rating/effective character level of the item is, then just use Craft Permanent Item to make it. In this version, intelligent items would probably be pseudo-constructs, but they'd still be subject to damage, mind control, etc.

 

[anondragon]

I hadn't actually done any specific work on figuring out the costs for such things, but I suppose you could make it using the creature creation rules. Figure out what the challenge rating/effective character level of the item is, then just use Craft Permanent Item to make it. In this version, intelligent items would probably be pseudo-constructs, but they'd still be subject to damage, mind control, etc.

I would have used the transform life effect (animate) to make the item intellegent (giving it 10's in Int,Wis,Char). Use infuse[X] to up the ability scores. compel[humanoid] to give it telepathy with people. Effects that the sword can call on would be additional effects.

For instance I want to enchant my magical ring of protection (Abjure Force 1/Gen 1) with a very basic intellegence (Transform Life 2(animate)/Compel Humaniod 2 (telepathic communication std)/Infuse Water 3 (wisdom boost+4)/Gen 1. Now I have an intellegent ring with Int 10, Wis 14, Chr 10 that can talk to me. (The alignment would be neutral because I didn't infused with an alignment.)

Now comes the interesting part, trying to determine what effects count for who? I would say when an effect can be activated or enjoyed by the wearer, treat the effect against the wearer. If the effect is one that only the item can activate, treat the effect against the item's 12 effects. (Intellegent items need one effect for their life) It might be a good idea to have all effect count against the item's 12 effect. And onlt those that the wearer can use count againt the wearer. Any ideas?