Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer

[Phaedrus]

To become a Heal Specialist (and get combined healing) requires 6 heal lists. This means Life + 5 "throw away" elements, if all you want to do is heal people. That's just the way it is, right? Or am I missing something? (Heal Earth, Nature, Metal so can repair equipment and walls, but you still need 2 more).

And, does Abjure Metal protect against normal metal weapons, or only against magical metal elemental attacks?

 

[Vaxalon]

...what charm and compel options did you feel were missing?

Instill Emotion in [Creature] had:

Courage, Depression, Fear, Friendliness, Hostility, Humor, Rage, Sadness

Charm [Creature] inspired loyalty.

Command [Creature] allowed you to give orders.

Compel [Creature] included:

Attract, Hold, Repel, Suggestion, Dance, Debauchery, Discord, Forget, Sing, Sleep

Dominate [Creature] allowed you to take more-or-less complete control.

Now we have fewer spell lists.

Abjure [Creature] gives us Hedging and Binding, which are something like attract and repel, sort of. It also gives us Hold, as I recall.

Charm [Creature] gives us emotions:
Anger, Calm, Confuse, Courage, Daze, Fear, Happiness, Sleep.

Compel [Creature] folds in the command and dominate lists, along with Telepathy.

The way I see it, Dance, Debauchery and Sing from the old Compel are gone, and with them anything related to requiring a particular action in general.

Am I missing something?

 

[Izerath]

Abjure Metal

To become a Heal Specialist (and get combined healing) requires 6 heal lists. This means Life + 5 "throw away" elements, if all you want to do is heal people. That's just the way it is, right? Or am I missing something? (Heal Earth, Nature, Metal so can repair equipment and walls, but you still need 2 more).

And, does Abjure Metal protect against normal metal weapons, or only against magical metal elemental attacks?

Crystal, Earth, Metal, and Nature deal physical damage not element energy damage. Therefore, those Abjure [element] spell lists do not bestow direct protection from the primary element, but they WILL protect you from their friendly element counertparts. This is specified in the ** bullet below "Table 2.2 - Elemental Relations" on page 26 of EoMR.

For example:

- Abjure [Metal] will not protect you from Metal damage, since it is considered slashing damage and not elemental energy damage, but it WILL protect you from Ooze damage.

- Abjure [Earth] will protect you from Lava and Ooze, but not Earth itself, since Earth deals bludgeoning damage, not elemental energy damage.

- Crystal protects from Ice and Light.

- Nature has no Abjuration value whatsoever, since it has no friendly elements.

Hope that helps.

 

[Kemrain]

Crystal, Earth, Metal, and Nature deal physical damage not element energy damage. Therefore, those Abjure [element] spell lists do not bestow direct protection from the primary element, but they WILL protect you from their friendly element counertparts. This is specified in the ** bullet below "Table 2.2 - Elemental Relations" on page 26 of EoMR.

For example:

- Abjure [Metal] will not protect you from Metal damage, since it is considered slashing damage and not elemental energy damage, but it WILL protect you from Ooze damage.

- Abjure [Earth] will protect you from Lava and Ooze, but not Earth itself, since Earth deals bludgeoning damage, not elemental energy damage.

- Crystal protects from Ice and Light.

- Nature has no Abjuration value whatsoever, since it has no friendly elements.

Hope that helps.

This information is slightly incomplete. With Abjure Metal you can give your target Damage Reduction against attacks from creatures with the Metal descriptor, or metal weapons. Even though DR and ER are close, I think DR against metal weapons is what Phaedrus is looking for. You can't Abjure Metal for an AC boost and expect it to apply to weapons, however, because it only protects against natural attacks of creatures with the Metal descriptor.

Abjure Nature, likewise, has no Energy Resistance, but it's not valueless, as with Abjure Nature you can give yourself DR against attacks from any physical source, or boost your AC against all attacks. Hedging Nature is good for creating barriers, too. Certanly a worthwhile list.

- Kemrain the "Naturally" "Metallic".

 

[Phaedrus]

Kemrain has my intent correctly... I'm talking about protecting against normal physical attacks from swords and the like.

Seems like Abjure Metal is a really good way to eliminate damage from normal metal weapons. Overpowered?

Abjure Nature is even better... all physical attacks, not just those from metal weapons.

Why would any mage NOT take these lists (and use them all the time)?

 

[anondragon]

Kemrain has my intent correctly... I'm talking about protecting against normal physical attacks from swords and the like.

Seems like Abjure Metal is a really good way to eliminate damage from normal metal weapons. Overpowered?

Abjure Nature is even better... all physical attacks, not just those from metal weapons.

Why would any mage NOT take these lists (and use them all the time)?

It only provides DR/magic (unless you buy the enhancement to make it something more exotic.) magic is pretty low barrier to overcome to bypass damage reduction. Another thing to point out is that by the time a mage can cast this with a reasonable duration, a fighter at a similiar level can power attack and easily get some damage through the DR. That said it would make a pretty good link in a mage's arsonal of defences, just be sure to include a high AC to foil power attack.

 

[Izerath]

Oops

 

[Izerath]

More info.....

In some fashion my earlier statement was indeed incomplete.

The base effect of Abjure is to grant some protective benefit. Enhancements almost always have to be purchased to boost AC, Saving Throws, grant DR, grant Energy Resistance, and grant Spell Resistance. The base cantrip offers minimal protection at best.

In some cases, these enhancements really favor certain elements, (like Nature for AC and DR, Force for AC) but in others they are significantly weaker because of the lack of friendly elements (Abjure Nature doesn't do didly for anything BUT Nature when applied to Saving Throws, Energy Resistance, and SR. I hope you can find a tree you need protection from in this case).

Also, I am led to believe that Abure Nature for DR only protects against natural attacks, not all physical attacks. This is a bit confusing and ultimately I think is a place for interpretation, or maybe even some guidance from Ryan on what he intended. If it is all attacks, then drop the 'physical' descriptor and say all attacks instead. If it is just natural attacks, like claws, fists etc, then use 'natural' instead of 'physical' as the descriptor. It makes things more clearly understood since thw word 'physical' can be interpreted a number of ways.

Ultimately, I think some of the less intuitively-understood elements, like Life, Death and Nature, need to be clearly defined in their uses for the different spell lists. Some of these are clear, others are cloudy. If that's intentional then great, since we all like a little wriggle room to work with as DMs!

Maybe Ryan's already ahead of the game and will offer more on this in LA.

 

[mbgrove]

Questions on (mostly) Create

First of all, I want to say that I am /very/ impressed with EOM(R). Much
goodness!

And now my questions...

My first question is, can you have multiple instances of the same list in the same spell? Take Abjure Force, for instance. Abjure Force can give you a deflection bonus to armor or a saving throw bonus or energy resistance or an energy buffer. Would it be possible to get multiple effects in one casting? If so, would it be created (Create Force 1, Create Force 1), where the first one is giving a deflection bonus and the second one is giving a saving throw bonus? Or would it be Create Force 2 with 1 of it defined as giving the deflection bonus and the other giving the saving throw bonus? (Personally, I would angle towards the second option, at least for reasons below.)

============

Create - In Create, we have the Elemental Object enhancement. I have a couple of different questions regarding this. First of all, in a couple of the examples (Mage Armor and Mage Plate), Create Force is used to create armor made of force. But, Elemental Object says, "If you are using Create Death, Force, Life, Space, or Time to create a physical object, you must select this enhancement, because there is no normal physical version of those elements." I read these as creating physical versions of Force. (How else would it give an armor bonus?) So... are the examples wrong or am I thinking of this wrong?

That being said, you'd need to be at least 3rd level in order to do a Create Force 3, with 1 being used for the max GP value and 2 being used for the Elemental Object enhancement. You could use other elements also, but it is the physical representation of the element that is what gives you the armor bonus, right? (On a more... enlightening... note, just think of plate mail made from Create Light. I'm not thinkin' you'd be on the vampires Christmas list. ::grin:: )

============

Question on the Elemental Weapon... Can you just create an Elemental Weapon out of any element and wield it? Would you have to use the Elemental Object enhancement first? So, if I wanted a force blade, how would I do it? I can think of at least 4 different ways at the moment: (Assuming a 5 MP spell)
* Use Elemental Weapon for 3d6 damage, doing no other damage but force, since it isn't in the "form" of anything specific (I didn't use any MP to purchase a GP limit). (But could I hold it? Would it have a physical form?)
* Use 1 MP to create an object up to 100 GP (call it a long sword), 3 MPs to give it extra damage from Elemental Weapon and have another MP for general enhancements. It would do 1d8 as a long sword and +2d6 of force damage. (Again, could I even hold it?)

And variants on above:
* Use Elemental Object (2 MPs) to create the weapon out of force and 3 MPs to give it 2d6 damage. Would only do the 2d6 of force damage, since it isn't in the form of any specific weapon. (Would actually be a physical "thing" to wield.)
* Use 1 MP to create an object up to 100 GP (call it a long sword), 2 MPs for Elemental Object, and 1 MP for Elemental Weapon. Would be a long sword doing 1d8 with an additional +1d6 of force damage.

So basically, could you just create a weapon (not a specific sword like long sword, just a "weapon") that you could wield without using MPs for GP cost or "physical manifestation" only doing the elemental damage? Or would you have to use one or both of the GP costs and physical manifestation (Elemental Object)?

============

And last, but not least, another question on Elemental Weapon... I noticed that 1 MP gives you +1d6 damage, 3 MP gives you +2d6 damage, etc. This is the reason that I like option 2 from the first question, since otherwise you could do (Create Force 1, Create Force 1) on your already existing long sword to give it +2d6 damage instead of using (Create Force 3). I guess this isn't just a question, but more of a clarification that needs to be put in either as "You can't have the same list in the same spell twice" or "You can have multiple effects of the same list in the same spell, but the effects can't be duplicated (I.e. can't have 2 separate instances of Abjure Nature 1 in an Abjure Nature 2 spell for an AC bonus of +4 instead of +3 that it would be for a straight Abjure Nature 2 spell). Again, I like option number 2, but it needs to be stated explicitly. (Yes, I do know people who would try to twist it the way things are.)

Well, I think that's "all" for now. ::wry smile:: Thanks for any clarification....

 

[Verequus]

Ok, I'll try to cut the Gordic knot in your mind.

My first question is, can you have multiple instances of the same list in the same spell? Take Abjure Force, for instance. Abjure Force can give you a deflection bonus to armor or a saving throw bonus or energy resistance or an energy buffer. Would it be possible to get multiple effects in one casting? If so, would it be created (Create Force 1, Create Force 1), where the first one is giving a deflection bonus and the second one is giving a saving throw bonus? Or would it be Create Force 2 with 1 of it defined as giving the deflection bonus and the other giving the saving throw bonus? (Personally, I would angle towards the second option, at least for reasons below.)

You mention the use of Abjure Force first, but then you write Create Force - that are two different spell lists. Generally, you can buy whatever you want, as long you can pay the MP cost. you can buy multiple enhancements from one spell list or take only one from several different lists. For convience, you add all costs for one spell list up, so the second line in the stat block lists Abjure Force 2/Gen 0 or Abjure Force 1/Abjure Nature 1/Gen 0. In the end, you aren't paying for every component in a spell individually, but the Total MP cost - if you haven't a caster level high enough for that, you can't cast the spell. Surely, you can split the spell into its components and cast them individually, but this has several disadvantages (more rounds to cast, Gen list has to be paid multiple times, not all intendend spell effects can be splitted and be effective, because opponents can dispel effects of former spells) and thus isn't recommened, if you don't have to.

Create - In Create, we have the Elemental Object enhancement. I have a couple of different questions regarding this. First of all, in a couple of the examples (Mage Armor and Mage Plate), Create Force is used to create armor made of force. But, Elemental Object says, "If you are using Create Death, Force, Life, Space, or Time to create a physical object, you must select this enhancement, because there is no normal physical version of those elements." I read these as creating physical versions of Force. (How else would it give an armor bonus?) So... are the examples wrong or am I thinking of this wrong?

Actually, these spells give an armor bonus, because they create OBJECTS, not an enhancement bonus. Different (and thus stackable) means for improving the AC. The main advantage for Force armory is, that it is weightless. The main disadvantage - it can be dispelled.

You could use other elements also, but it is the physical representation of the element that is what gives you the armor bonus, right?

Yes - for elements having a physical representation already you don't need Elemental Object and are thus cheaper - but look for side effects like of fire - Create Fire 1 toasts everyone without protection.

Question on the Elemental Weapon... Can you just create an Elemental Weapon out of any element and wield it? Would you have to use the Elemental Object enhancement first? So, if I wanted a force blade, how would I do it? I can think of at least 4 different ways at the moment: (Assuming a 5 MP spell)
* Use Elemental Weapon for 3d6 damage, doing no other damage but force, since it isn't in the "form" of anything specific (I didn't use any MP to purchase a GP limit). (But could I hold it? Would it have a physical form?)
* Use 1 MP to create an object up to 100 GP (call it a long sword), 3 MPs to give it extra damage from Elemental Weapon and have another MP for general enhancements. It would do 1d8 as a long sword and +2d6 of force damage. (Again, could I even hold it?)

And variants on above:
* Use Elemental Object (2 MPs) to create the weapon out of force and 3 MPs to give it 2d6 damage. Would only do the 2d6 of force damage, since it isn't in the form of any specific weapon. (Would actually be a physical "thing" to wield.)
* Use 1 MP to create an object up to 100 GP (call it a long sword), 2 MPs for Elemental Object, and 1 MP for Elemental Weapon. Would be a long sword doing 1d8 with an additional +1d6 of force damage.

Partly answered above. The maximum cost for a creation is determined through the MP spent on the Create lists alone. So the best possibility is Elemental Object (2 MP) and 3 MP for +2d6 damage, while you have a long sword with a base damage of 1d8.

So basically, could you just create a weapon (not a specific sword like long sword, just a "weapon") that you could wield without using MPs for GP cost or "physical manifestation" only doing the elemental damage? Or would you have to use one or both of the GP costs and physical manifestation (Elemental Object)?

You have to specify the resulting object. "Monetary Guidelines: Regardless of what specific enhancements you get for a Create spell, the total MP spent on Create lists determines the maximum monetary value of item you can create. This monetary value refers to both craftsmanship and materials. For example, full plate costs 1500 gp normally, so if you wanted to create an item with the same defensive qualities as plate using Create Force, you would need to spend at least 3 MP, even though force itself has no material cost. Likewise, if you wanted to create full plate made of solid gold, the price would effectively be 4000 gp, 1500 for the suit itself, and an additional 2500 for 50 pounds of gold (gold is about 50 gp per pound)."

And last, but not least, another question on Elemental Weapon... I noticed that 1 MP gives you +1d6 damage, 3 MP gives you +2d6 damage, etc. This is the reason that I like option 2 from the first question, since otherwise you could do (Create Force 1, Create Force 1) on your already existing long sword to give it +2d6 damage instead of using (Create Force 3). I guess this isn't just a question, but more of a clarification that needs to be put in either as "You can't have the same list in the same spell twice" or "You can have multiple effects of the same list in the same spell, but the effects can't be duplicated (I.e. can't have 2 separate instances of Abjure Nature 1 in an Abjure Nature 2 spell for an AC bonus of +4 instead of +3 that it would be for a straight Abjure Nature 2 spell). Again, I like option number 2, but it needs to be stated explicitly. (Yes, I do know people who would try to twist it the way things are.)

Well, I think that's "all" for now. ::wry smile:: Thanks for any clarification....

I answered that above. I don't know exactly, where the rules text stand, but I think it must be under the basics in chapter 3.

If some questions are still open, then simply ask!