Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer

[mbgrove]

Ok, I'll try to cut the Gordic knot in your mind.
You mention the use of Abjure Force first, but then you write Create Force - that are two different spell lists.
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Heh... That I did. I knew I was writing about both of them, just didn't wait until I got to the Create stuff. A classic example of reading what you know you wanted to write. ::wry smile::

Generally, you can buy whatever you want, as long you can pay the MP cost. you can buy multiple enhancements from one spell list or take only one from several different lists. For convience, you add all costs for one spell list up, so the second line in the stat block lists Abjure Force 2/Gen 0 or Abjure Force 1/Abjure Nature 1/Gen 0. ...
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Well, really my point was that it needs to be explicitly stated in the rules that you can't have something like (Abjure Force 2/Gen 0) and say that it is Abjure Force 1 twice to get +4 to saving throws instead of +3 that you would get with using all the MPs together.

Actually, these spells give an armor bonus, because they create OBJECTS, not an enhancement bonus.
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Basically, I /was/ saying that the spell is supposed to be giving an armor bonus. However, I'm not seeing how Create Force by itself (according to the rules, anyway), without the Elemental Object enhancement, can give that armor bonus. THAT is my point. The "Mage Armor" and "Mage Plate" spells both use Create Force, but I can't find anywhere that says that (Create Force 1) gives an armor bonus by itself. Specifically since it doesn't have a physical "version". (Essentially, when and how to use Elemental Object is giving me fits. ::wry smile:: My thoughts on Create Force are below.)

Yes - for elements having a physical representation already you don't need Elemental Object and are thus cheaper - but look for side effects like of fire - Create Fire 1 toasts everyone without protection.
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It won't harm the caster, though, so that's good. You could wield your Create Fire-based sword and not be harmed.

But again, with Elemental Object, if you use Create Force to create the mithril chain shirt in the example... *I* am reading it that it would need to be (Create Force 3) to get the armor bonus, since it explicitly says that Force doesn't have a physical version Yet, I can use (Create Fire 1) to give me that flamin' mithril chain shirt that gives me the armor bonus because it has a physical version? No, not that either. The Flaming Barrier example shows us that, for the Create Fire spell to actually be a barrier of any sort, it needs the Elemental Object enhancement. So, what is the Elemental Object enhancement really doing for me?

Basically, there are a couple of issues at hand here.
1) Create Force - In my opinion, along with Metal, Earth, Ooze, Lava, Ice, and Crystal, wouldn't NEED Elemental Object, since they DO have physical manifestations that you can touch. (In this way, I see Force as a force field type of thing. The book says that it exists on both the material and ethereal planes. I'm thinkin' that's a physical manifestation of force, which I would call a force field, which WOULD give an armor bonus. But Elemental Object says otherwise.)
2) I would think that all OTHER elements would need the Elemental Object in order to create a physical manifestation of the element that could be touched, hit or be used TO hit to do physical damage. Personally, I've never known of fire or mist, for examples, to be able to deflect anything in a way that could be described in the game as an armor bonus or that would stop someone from physically running through it (with the exception of the fear of not wanting to get hurt by the fire).

(Yes, this is somewhat getting bogged down in the "can it give an armor bonus", but trying to figure out /exactly/ what Elemental Object is doing for me is the issue at hand.)

You have to specify the resulting object. "Monetary Guidelines: Regardless of what specific enhancements you get for a Create spell, the total MP spent on Create lists determines the maximum monetary value of item you can create.
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Ok. I follow. But, my question here is, do I have to create something that is real and has monetary value?

Again, assuming a 5 MP spell, here are a couple of the "I'm going to create a 'weapon' and hit you with it" scenario:
1) Create a greatsword (the 100 gp value category) out of Light and add Elemental Weapon to it. So, I have 1 MP for the monetary value, 2 MPs for the Elemental Object and 1 MP for Elemental Damage Bonus of +1d6. (Don't have enough to add another die.) So, this would give us 2d6 physical damage from the sword itself and 1d6 of Light elemental damage. Would look like (Create Light 4).
OR could I
2) Create a brightly glowing, light-saber lookin' "rod" of pure Light that /has/ no physical manifestation, but causes 3d6 Light damage. This would be using (Create Light 5) with using all the MPs to fuel the Elemental Weapon. So, at this point, all I'm doing is wielding a beam of pure Light.

So... could I create #2 with just using a "monetary value" of 20gp or less since it doesn't actually have a physical form? Can I even DO the option in #2?

(Yes, it's very possibly more "efficient" to create the sword with Elemental Object and tag on Elemental Weapon, but that's not the point. ::wry smile:: )

 

[lord_banus]

With create [Element], is it possible to create a vessel for the more liquid elements for free. For example, could I use create water or create acid in a simple glass container or would I have to do a create crystal? How about changing some of the properties of the liquid such as increasing its surface tension or making into goo or is this the realm of transform.

Just curious how people would do it.

 

[RangerWickett]

So, I can't reply to all of these b ecause I'm borrowing a computer while my friends eat dinner, but I'll see if I can answer a few questions. Dang it, I hate using Macs to type.

 

[RangerWickett]

To become a Heal Specialist (and get combined healing) requires 6 heal lists. This means Life + 5 "throw away" elements, if all you want to do is heal people. That's just the way it is, right? Or am I missing something? (Heal Earth, Nature, Metal so can repair equipment and walls, but you still need 2 more).

And, does Abjure Metal protect against normal metal weapons, or only against magical metal elemental attacks?

Heal Specialist is a great feat, and so if you're going to get it, you oughta find a way to take advantage of the requirement. Heal can help you fix objects, repair damage to undead and constructs, and heal elementals. Plus, you'll probably want to grab the alignment healing spell lists, so you can heal good guys and hurt bad guys.

Abjure Metal provides DR against metal weapons, and against any creature with the 'metal' descriptor (none in the core rules officially, but you'd probably make stuff like Iron Golems count). There isn't metal elemental damage. Metal, Nature, Crystal, and Earth don't deal elemental damage.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm loving the Magic Item rules, but there are some things I'm not exactly sure about. I have a character who has some shape shifting ability, and it is awfully annoying that her equipment can't change with her.

What makes you think that?

If you want to transform metal into mithral, permanently, it would be (off the top of my head, since I'm having to work from memory here) Transform Metal 0/Gen 1, made permanent with craft permanent spell. I think that'd be something like 100 XP to turn steel to mithril. But it'd suck if you got hit by dispel magic or entered an antimagic field.

As for light-proofing your groovy dark Elf weapons, you could use either a) Craft Permanent Spell to get light resistance on the object and only the object, or b) Craft Wondrous Item to get light resistance to the bearer of the item, and all other items the bearer carries. Option B is better. The only benefit of option A is that the swords would not decay in light if you lose hold of them, and that it wouldn't count against your limit.

The enhancements go up to high numbers so that you can have a single item that provides a high bonus, instead of multiple small items that add up to a high bonus.


To this effect, I'm putting together a Ring of Change. Transform Nature 1, Trandform Metal 1, Gen 1 should be enough to make a wonderous item that can transform her armor, clothing, and weapons to fit her new form. Obviously, weapons made into non-weapon objects can't be used to attack effectively, and Armor changed into clothing wouldn't protect much at all, but if she changed an item, say her armor with a +1 Enhancement bonus, into say, Bracers, would they still confer the Enhancement bonus to AC? Also, since the ring is a perminant effect, would the changed equipment be permanant, too? Would permanant changes cost XP constantly? What type of action would changing an object be? (Transform Metal could be a great way to get around those long donning armor times.) Oh, and how should I price a Transform MEtal spell that made Iron into, say, Mithral.

If (since in our game Drow Adamantine weapons corrde in sunlight) I put an Abjure Light spell on a sword, to give it Energy Resistance (so it wouldn't turn to, um, Adamantine-Oxide), would the Energy Resistance apply to the wielder, too? If it does, and I have 2 Swords with that same enchantment on them, would they both count towards the number of Magic items I can use at once, since they don't stack and one is canceled out? Could they both be enchanted at once if they're both in the origional area of effect?

Is there a way to make a Magic Item that grants a bonus that will stack with other magic bonuses (asside from the Deflection/Enhancement bonuses to AC) for an increased cost?

- Kemrain the Curious

 

[Owldragon]

Okay, here is my take on the questions mbgrove is raising about the Create list:

The text does actually say that you need to use the Elemental Object enhancement to create Force physical objects, but the examples directly contradict that. The examples treat Force as one of the physical elements, like a "force field." I tend to think that the listing of Force as one of the elements you need Elemental Object for was a mistake, but we'll have to ask the author for the definitive answer on that.

As for Elemental Weapon, I do think you need something physical to enhance, even if it is a cheap sword or club. If you wanted a blade of Light, for example, you'd have to either:
a) spend 2 MP on Elemental Object, and then more for Elemental Weapon
b) use a combination spell - one spell list to create a physical weapon for 1 MP and then Create Light to add the Elemental Weapon damage

Of course, if Force really works like the examples indicate, you might be able to spend up to your maximum MP on Elemental Weapon, and also create the weapon that is being enhanced without having to take the Elemental Object enhancement.

That's how I read things, anyway.

While we're talking about the Create lists, btw... the wording of Create Light implies that the created object sheds light, but I don't see any problem with just having the light generated from a point in space. I've also thought about whether or not it would be a good idea to allow the light to come from an existing object. If that is allowed, then you have to determine if you can light up attended objects, like the armor of a thief who's trying to hide. I would say that you can make light come from a point in space or an object you create; I'm still ambivalent about other objects. Any thoughts?

 

[Verequus]

Sorry for the delay.

Well, really my point was that it needs to be explicitly stated in the rules that you can't have something like (Abjure Force 2/Gen 0) and say that it is Abjure Force 1 twice to get +4 to saving throws instead of +3 that you would get with using all the MPs together.

AFAIK, only healing and damage dice stack. I have to admit, that I don't know if this stand in EoM and if it is in the text, where to look. But in another thread RangerWickett stated this explicitly.

Basically, I /was/ saying that the spell is supposed to be giving an armor bonus. However, I'm not seeing how Create Force by itself (according to the rules, anyway), without the Elemental Object enhancement, can give that armor bonus. THAT is my point. The "Mage Armor" and "Mage Plate" spells both use Create Force, but I can't find anywhere that says that (Create Force 1) gives an armor bonus by itself. Specifically since it doesn't have a physical "version". (Essentially, when and how to use Elemental Object is giving me fits. ::wry smile:: My thoughts on Create Force are below.

It won't harm the caster, though, so that's good. You could wield your Create Fire-based sword and not be harmed.

But again, with Elemental Object, if you use Create Force to create the mithril chain shirt in the example... *I* am reading it that it would need to be (Create Force 3) to get the armor bonus, since it explicitly says that Force doesn't have a physical version Yet, I can use (Create Fire 1) to give me that flamin' mithril chain shirt that gives me the armor bonus because it has a physical version? No, not that either. The Flaming Barrier example shows us that, for the Create Fire spell to actually be a barrier of any sort, it needs the Elemental Object enhancement. So, what is the Elemental Object enhancement really doing for me?

Basically, there are a couple of issues at hand here.

1) Create Force - In my opinion, along with Metal, Earth, Ooze, Lava, Ice, and Crystal, wouldn't NEED Elemental Object, since they DO have physical manifestations that you can touch. (In this way, I see Force as a force field type of thing. The book says that it exists on both the material and ethereal planes. I'm thinkin' that's a physical manifestation of force, which I would call a force field, which WOULD give an armor bonus. But Elemental Object says otherwise.)

2) I would think that all OTHER elements would need the Elemental Object in order to create a physical manifestation of the element that could be touched, hit or be used TO hit to do physical damage. Personally, I've never known of fire or mist, for examples, to be able to deflect anything in a way that could be described in the game as an armor bonus or that would stop someone from physically running through it (with the exception of the fear of not wanting to get hurt by the fire).

(Yes, this is somewhat getting bogged down in the "can it give an armor bonus", but trying to figure out /exactly/ what Elemental Object is doing for me is the issue at hand.)

Oh, I didn't think my answer entirely through. You have to use my rule of thumb: If you throw a rock at an element and the rock won't pass through that element, you don't need Elemental Object. Ooze and Lava are still liquids and won't pass the test. To the Force dilemma: It depends how you view Force - it could be in it natural state intangible like gravity.

Ok. I follow. But, my question here is, do I have to create something that is real and has monetary value?

Again, assuming a 5 MP spell, here are a couple of the "I'm going to create a 'weapon' and hit you with it" scenario:

1) Create a greatsword (the 100 gp value category) out of Light and add Elemental Weapon to it. So, I have 1 MP for the monetary value, 2 MPs for the Elemental Object and 1 MP for Elemental Damage Bonus of +1d6. (Don't have enough to add another die.) So, this would give us 2d6 physical damage from the sword itself and 1d6 of Light elemental damage. Would look like (Create Light 4).

OR could I

2) Create a brightly glowing, light-saber lookin' "rod" of pure Light that /has/ no physical manifestation, but causes 3d6 Light damage. This would be using (Create Light 5) with using all the MPs to fuel the Elemental Weapon. So, at this point, all I'm doing is wielding a beam of pure Light.

So... could I create #2 with just using a "monetary value" of 20gp or less since it doesn't actually have a physical form? Can I even DO the option in #2?

(Yes, it's very possibly more "efficient" to create the sword with Elemental Object and tag on Elemental Weapon, but that's not the point. ::wry smile:: )

"The total MP spent on Create lists determines the maximum monetary value." Look at the bold word and then at my example - the best possibility for 5 MP is Elemental Object (2 MP) and 3 MP for +2d6 damage, while you have a long sword with a base damage of 1d8. The maximum monetary value for 5 MP is always 100.000 gp - whatever the cost for a longsword is, you don't need to use extra MP for increasing the gp limit.

BTW, RangerWickett, the unlimited cost for 6 MPs is not good, like the big jump from 4 MP to 5 MP. How about "For every extra MP, the maximum monetary value is doubled.", beginning at 4 MP. And have Macs different keyboards?

 

[lord_banus]

Do we have any word on when Lyceian Arcana will be release. Mid may was the last I heard which is now here.

I'm pretty eager to get my hands on it.

 

[RangerWickett]

Looking at the Infuse spell list, it says you can Infuse an Element or an Alignment. However, looking at the spell list, I can't seem to find what, other than aligning to an Element or Alignment, Infuse Alignment, would do.

Infuse Alignment doesn't do much. It helps you hurt people if you have Evoke Alignment spells (hit them with Infuse Evil, then Evoke Good), and it helps you heal the converse way. It messes with divinations. And it would make an item count as aligned for the sake of bypassing certain types of damage reduction.

Now that I think about it, what would happen to an aligned Outsider, say a Demon, if they were Infused with Good and had their alignment overpowered by the spell?

They would still be evil, but would detect as good. It wouldn't turn the creature into a kindly, loving being; you'd need Compel to do that.

Oh, and could you Abjure Good, for DR, with the Greater DR enhancement, aligned to Cold Iron, so the above Demon's Cold Iron or Good DR was made into simply Cold Iron DR?

- Kemrain the [Evil].

Hmm. So, you're casting Abjure Good on a demon, which gives it DR x/magic. But I'm not sure if you're saying you want to upgrade the spell to grant DR x/cold iron, or DR x/good. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[RangerWickett]

Wow, you ask a lot of questions at once. Okay, let me take this step by step.

Metamagic feats: Is the DC not increased through the extra paid MP? I didn't found a direct mentioning of that, but the example of Intense Spell implies it, along with core rules.

The saving throw of an Elements of Magic spell is 10 + 1/2 MP cost + Charisma modifier. It doesn't matter whether you paid the MP for spell lists or metamagic feats. The Intense Spell feat just lets your MP work double duty.

Can item creation with restrictions be less costly? How can items created which allow only a race or alignment, behave different, if used by members of different classes, or impose some kind of another restriction?

I've got some material on this subject in Lyceian Arcana. A lot of it comes down to "guess." A few flavorful restrictions here and there, like the Elvish Oathbow, are kinda nice, and it'd be okay to cut a 10% price break on such an item. But if a player custom buys all his magic items and has them all made so they can only be used by him, well, that's not really a drawback, so it shouldn't provide a cost reduction.

Transform Splitting Option: What happens to the memory of (killed) split beings? Does the transformed being know everything after the spell ends?

Only one of the entities is actually you. The rest are extensions of you. If you split yourself into 12 wolves, one of those wolves has your mind, and the rest just act at your command. If the one wolf that is you dies, the whole group dies.

Are ritual magic spells handled equally in every regard to normal spells except their casting? Can metamagic feats applied to ritual spells?

The ritual spellcasting rules are still being fiddled with. But yes, you ought to be able to metamagic them.

Can Move Space be used to teleport into antimagic-fields? If yes, the normal SR check has to be done? Can an antimagic-field be dispelled?

You can try to teleport into an antimagic field, yes. And you'd have beat the SR. If you fail, I'd say that you go nowhere at all, but some GMs might prefer that you end up just outside the field.

You can try to dispel an antimagic field. You'd have to beat its SR first for your spell to work at all, and then you'd do a normal dispel check.

Move Life, Spirit Wander: How can these souls be affected? And how can these affect anything?

A 'spirit wander' spell just lets a creature pop out of its body for a little while and look at people's souls. The Elements of Magic system doesn't exactly have the same set-up of ethereal and astral planes that the core rules assume, but the Spirit Wander and Spirit Projection effects both effectively turn you ethereal. Spirit Projection lets you enjoy the benefits of being like an ethereal creature, whereas Spirit Wander pretty much only lets you observe things.

In spirit wander, you can't attack, but you can be hurt by effects that can hurt incorporeal creatures, and that affect the mind or soul. An Evoke Space spell, even though it could hit you, wouldn't damage you because your body is not actually there. An Evoke Death spell could harm you, since it damages your life force, and Charm and Compel spells could affect you too.

"When the spell ends, extraplanar summoned creatures return whence they came, taking with them any items or injuries they received." This means, death is permanent, too?

Eh, I don't worry about it. It's up to GMs to decide whether you're actually summoning something, or if you're just creating creatures out of nothing. And even if you are actually summoning something, your GM might decide that it works like core summon spells. Just do whatever works for you.

What is the saving throw of Evoke Death 3/Evoke Fire 3? Two saving throws for each kind of damage? If you attack an incorporeal creature with Evoke Fire 3/Evoke Force 3, damages only Evoke Force 3 normally?

Evoke Death 3/Evoke Fire 3/Gen 0 would have a DC 13 Fortitude save, and a DC 13 Reflex save, assuming the caster had no Charisma modifier. If you cast Evoke Fire x/Evoke Force x/Gen x at an incorporeal creature, yes, only the Force damage would hurt it. You could, however, use Evoke Fire x/Evoke Space 3/Gen x, and hit it with fire, but you could only hit either corporeal or incorporeal creatures, not both with the same spell.

"When a creature changes form, it gains the new form’s Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, movement abilities, natural armor, and innate natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities. The creature’s hit points also change to those of the new form, if the new form has more hit points." If I have 5th level character with 30 hp and Constitution of 18 and the character changes to a creature with a Con 10, what happens? Do I lose 20 hp first and compare then, if the new form has more than 10 hp, or are my minimum hp 30? And after looking into the teaser thread, I've found out, that I've asked, what happens to nonabilities like transforming into an undead, but the answer isn't in EoM.

I just swung by the Rules forum, and as it was over a month ago, people still can't quite decide what happens to HP with polymorph. I say, however, that for Elements of Magic, a Transform spell will never make you lose hit points. When you assume the creature's form, if the creature's normal total HP is more than your normal total HP, you get the creature's HP.

"If you want permanent transformation, such as with a medusa’s gaze, you must use the Craft Permanent Spell feat." I wonder, why those medusas and basiliks don't have to pay for XP - because sp- and su-ablities don't pay XP usually?

Monsters get to break the rules.

After looking into the spell listing thread, I see that Kavyk had the same idea I had: Spells with entries, how to scale them. The EoM component structure lends itself for a quick powerup. Such entries would allow a GM to change spells on the fly or saying "That was a signature spell!". I dug my old proposition out and cleaned it up:

[Element]/[Alignment]ball
Minimum MP: 2
Evoke [Element]/[Aligment] 1/Gen 1
Range: Short (30 ft.)
Duration: Instanteous
Saving Throw: Reflex half, other for possible ambient side effects

This spell surrounds the target shortly with a ball of [Element]/[Alignment] and does 1d6 damage. Costs: 1 MP damage, 1 MP range.

Improvements:
Scalable damage: 1 MP for 1d6, can be from every element/alignment.
Increased range: 1 MP for Medium (150 ft.), 2 MP for Long (800 ft.).
Contingency: 1 MP for Short (10 minutes), 2 MP for Medium (one hour), used for delay or as trap trigger.

The improvement entries are the most likely used enhancements with included values, what will be changed, and if applicable, the upper range of the enhancement (there could be used more MPs on such an enhancement, but such situations would be rare) and specific use. This example defines not only a Fireball, but also a Delayed Blast Fireball and a Fire Trap in all varieties, including other elements and aligments. I didn't include a side effect table, because that would be clunky and it can be simply looked up. Or is this format too unwieldy? Then it has to be broken up into 27 different spells.

That works nicely for Evoke, Heal, and Summon, which are rather straightforward, and you can kinda do it with Abjure and Infuse since they have numerical factors too, but each has a lot of options. And it's pretty much pointless to try to make a short format version of Create or Transform. For Lyceian Arcana, I want to include a simplified version of the spellcasting rules, but I keep hitting snags trying to figure out how to simplify the complicated spells.