Elements of Magic: Questions for the Designer

[RangerWickett]

Fox, I think it could work rather well, though it might be a little odd having normal spells up to 20th level, and then spell lists thereafter. I admit that I haven't looked closely at the epic rules, especially not for magic. I never quite understood how it worked that the only way for characters to get better spells at epic level was to spend feats to get one or two spell slots at a time, but I suppose it was balanced by the idea that they'd be using the epic spellmaking rules.

That's one of the things I plan to put into Lyceian Arcana, since I have a few extra weeks to brainstorm thanks to the delays caused by the ENMag. I already have EOM equivalents of the core spellcasting classes, and I was looking into figuring out how broken stuff might get at epic levels.

So, short answer: I'm on it.

Long answer: It's danged complicated. It's not hard to use EOM and non-EOM magic in the same campaign, but I hadn't bent my efforts toward figuring out how to work them into the same character. But expect something to touch on it in Lyceian Arcana.

 

[BSF]

Well, Epic Spellcasting doesn't quite rely on spellslots either. Higher spellslots seem to be more geared toward metamagicing high level spells. Epic spells, as portrayed in the ELH are just researched and memorized formulae with a higher power cap.

I loved the concept of questing for Spellseeds and acquiring more mastery over that component of magic. But then to have it just used as part of a formula to research some near-ritualisitc spell that gives you ridiculous bonuses just rings off-key for me. Having spellseeds give you more dynamic control over magic seems far more cool.

One thing I do notice is that I don't see much on Epic magic in the SRD. Hmm.

 

[Kemrain]

A creature whose alignment is altered with Infuse (or with Illusion Death, for that matter) is affected by magic as if that were its real alignment. In the case of Illusion Death, if the spellcaster disbelieved, his magic would function against the creature using its normal alignment.
...
In Lyceian Arcana, I made sure to add in the option for Create [Alignment], which I just completely forgot about for EOM. Create [Alignment] isn't really good for much else than creating aligned weapons, but it is still a useful trick. And I suppose it'd be cool to have a house made of pure good, using 'elemental object.'

Thank you for answering these questions. I appreciate your time. Now, I have more! Bwahahahah..err.. Right...

If I Create Space X/ Gen 1 to make a permanant pocket dimention 5 feet square (using craft Wonderous Item or Permanant Spell), and I put the opening in the mouth of my backpack, if I pick up and wear said backpack do I have to carry the weight of the items in the pocket? Does the opening move with the backpack, or with me, or is it fixed to a point in space? Could I move the opening like a portable hole? There isn't air in the space unless I cast Create Air too, right?

If I made a Ring that had Transform Metal on it, I could alter it's shape and appearance, but that ability wouldn't be usable on other objects, right? How do I create a non-charged item that will let me transform my equipment/clothing/armor? Any way to make that transformation a free action instead of a standard action?

For now, I'll just follow the rules for Create Element and apply them to Create Alignment. In LA, are you going to throw in rules similar to the negitive levels bestowed upon a non-good wielder of a Good item? Would a Good sword deal damage to, say, a Demon, simply by touching it to them, or must you cut?

I am eagerly awaiting the release of Lyceian Arcana, and busy testing EoMr to it's limits. Hope something constructive comes from me asking these crazy questions (Like Create Alignment spells). Thanks again.

- Kemrain the [Space].

 

[Kemrain]

I've come up with another question, based on the Blur spell. Is there a way to grant consealment less than total in EoM? You can become invisible with Illusion Shadow 3 (I think), but could I simply grant myself partial consealment (20% miss chance) so I could hide in a lit alrea without cover, or prevent myself from being sneak attacked?

- Kemrain the Hidden.

 

[RangerWickett]

If I Create Space X/ Gen 1 to make a permanant pocket dimention 5 feet square (using craft Wonderous Item or Permanant Spell), and I put the opening in the mouth of my backpack, if I pick up and wear said backpack do I have to carry the weight of the items in the pocket? Does the opening move with the backpack, or with me, or is it fixed to a point in space? Could I move the opening like a portable hole? There isn't air in the space unless I cast Create Air too, right?

You can affix any spell to a point in space or to an object or creature, so yeah, you can have a backpack with an extradimensional space. Heck, you could even do some classic magic tricks, like having an extradimensional space behind your ear where you keep your coins, or under your skirt where you keep your giant hammer or katana (pardon the anime joke). The extradimensional space is on a different plane, so items inside it don't have a weight in this world.

You can use Create Air to make the pocket dimension have fresh air, which is necessary if you're going to have someone live in there for long. If you don't, though, air will circulate through the opening just as it would through a normal opening. You could hide in a dimensional pocket and have enough air for a few minutes probably, and if you left the entrance open you'd be able to breathe just fine.

If I made a Ring that had Transform Metal on it, I could alter it's shape and appearance, but that ability wouldn't be usable on other objects, right? How do I create a non-charged item that will let me transform my equipment/clothing/armor? Any way to make that transformation a free action instead of a standard action?

If you cast Transform Metal on a ring, then you've just changed the shape of the ring. You could create a ring that had an unlimited-use ability to cast Transform Metal, which would let you transform any metal you touched. If you want a magic item that will let you change the shape of what you're wearing, you could have an unlimited-use Transform Nature 1/Transform Metal 1/Gen 0, but again, that would work for things you touch.

I would suggest, as a judgment call, that if you wanted an item that could transform your clothes, make an unlimited-use item that can cast Transform Nature 1/Transform Metal 1/Gen 0, but at a quarter cost because you're limited to only using it on yourself. If it also lets you transform all your gear (like weapons, or, taken to an extreme, letting you have nearly any tool you want), I wouldn't cut you a discount. At 1/4 price, it's effectively a variant of 'disguise self,' that isn't an illusion, and that can't change your bodily appearance, just your stuff.

For now, I'll just follow the rules for Create Element and apply them to Create Alignment. In LA, are you going to throw in rules similar to the negitive levels bestowed upon a non-good wielder of a Good item? Would a Good sword deal damage to, say, a Demon, simply by touching it to them, or must you cut?

I am eagerly awaiting the release of Lyceian Arcana, and busy testing EoMr to it's limits. Hope something constructive comes from me asking these crazy questions (Like Create Alignment spells). Thanks again.

- Kemrain the [Space].

Hm. Negative levels from wielding aligned objects. Hmm. I wish you'd mentioned that two months ago. It would've been a nice thing to let Infuse [Alignment] do. I'll think on it. Thanks.

 

[RangerWickett]

I've come up with another question, based on the Blur spell. Is there a way to grant consealment less than total in EoM? You can become invisible with Illusion Shadow 3 (I think), but could I simply grant myself partial consealment (20% miss chance) so I could hide in a lit alrea without cover, or prevent myself from being sneak attacked?

- Kemrain the Hidden.

I could've sworn I included that as an option for a mild- or moderate-strength visual Illusion. It ought to be available for 1 MP, so that you can intensify it and have it available for 4 MP, to match the Blur spell.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Possible Options

Greetings.

First off, thanks for working on this system, I like the concept and so far it seems fairly well balanced. Not having the next version yet (willing to proof-read tho ) I had some thoughts on balance and potential changes.

For balance, I think the base damage of 1D6 gets to be too much too soon. I lost a mummy in 3 rounds of combat courtesy of a magic missile spell. I would suggest lowering this to 1D4.

Of course, it does not have to stay that low. In an effort to emulate the Sorcerer concept of less spell options and more power, I have developed a house rule that allows the character to trade in spell lists for enhancements. This can be done in a couple areas:

Damage increases. Select the same list multiple times to increase the base damage. 1D6 costs 2 lists, 1D8 costs 6 lists, 1D10 costs 14 lists, 1D12 costs 30 lists, 1D20 costs 60 lists.
When trading dice for effects, such as in Heal, higher die types are worth more. D8's are worth 2 dice, D12's are worth 3 dice, and D20's are worth 4 dice.

List enhancements. Use 2 lists to gain a 1MP enhancement for a specific list. You can choose to use these enhancements when casting a spell that is exclusively from that list. You do not actually pay the MP costs of these enhancements, altho the spell MP total remains the same. The caster is still limited from casting higher MP spells.

FX, Carl selects the Evoke:Acid list 4 times, once as an initial selection, once to increase the base damage to 1D6, and twice for the 1MP side effect of continuing damage for 1 round. Now when Carl casts an Evoke:Acid cantip, it deals 1D6 damage for 2 rounds just as a Evoke:Acid1/Gen0 but only costs Carl 0 MP.

FX, Carl selects Abjure:Undead list 7 times, once as an initial selection, and six times for the 3 MP increase of duration 1 hour. The spell, Protection from Undead Abjure:Undead4/gen3 provides an hours worth of protection, and Carl would only have to pay 4 MPs to cast it.

These extra selections of the same list do not count towards Specialization, Mastery, or for the increase of mana limits. A Fire Mage who has spent all his lists on Evoke:Fire may be able to toss around spells that deal 1D20 damage, but would still have the 5 MP limit due to not knowing any other Evoke spell lists. Not that this doesn't make him *really* dangerous... an Evoke:fire4/gen16 that burns a 80' radius for a day dealing 1D20 each round is, well, nasty.


I am not sure how/if this meshes with the upcoming rules, but its what I intend on doing with my game.

Incidently, I tend to prefer formula's to tables, mainly due to wanting to make an excell spreadsheet to handle all these options, and some of your tables defy my limited math skills. Do you have formula's for these things?
Like the mana points per caster level.. can't get that at all.

Thanks!

 

[Kemrain]

I like the concept you're describing, Screwhead, however I think the limiting factor that you might not have taken into account is that, at 20th level, you'd only have 45 Spell Lists. You need every list you can get! The cost of a spell list is prohibitively high, and spending more than one seems crazy to me. I'd be more likley to willingly give up MP from my total than cut off a spell list, but that's just me. Interesting idea. I'd like to see what Ranger Wickett thinks of it.

- Kemrain the Spell-List Deprived.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Kemrain, I did take that limiting factor into play.. I listed the D20 damage level mainly for those epic types out there.

My game rarely makes it over 14th level, so I am more concerned over the balance of the lower level abilities.

My main goal is to emulate more castings of higher power but less variety. Take your generic 5th level mage, who has 17 lists to play with.
Carl decided to be Mr Fry guy, and spends his lists as follows:
Evoke Fire 6 for 1D8 damage 8 for Enduring damage, 2 for 10 minute duration.
Evoke Ice 1 for 1D4 damage

His 0 MP Fire cantrip can deal 1D8 damage per round for 10 minutes.
He can choose not to use the enduring damage or the extended duration, but if he does he does not have to pay for them.
He also cannot spend more than 10MP in Evoke:Fire since he has only 2 lists (counting the Enduring damage if he uses it)
He is also very reliant on dealing Fire damage, run into an encounter that is protected from this, he is potentially screwed. It makes him a 'Specialist' without having to have any class dependant mechanics, and the player can choose how specialized to be.

and yes, I very much beleive spell lists are scarce already,thats part of why I chose them for exchange value
My first draft had a spell list = 1MP, which was way to low. Who wouldn't burn 3 extra spell lists to have a 0MP cone of fire?

JHMO, thanks for the reply! I don't have any players who have fully read the rules yet.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Limitations

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sorry, double post.. bad internet browser!