[Elements Revised] Spell list fixes - proposed

[RangerWickett]

So most of the people here are familiar with the problems that've been brought up involving some key spell lists. I've got some proposed fixes. If you approve, I intend to put them in Lyceian Arcana, and to make them available as a free download. These are the biggies that aren't so obvious, but there'll also be a few minor clarifications and such.

So here goes:

 

[mbgrove]

First glance...

Have some thoughts on the EOM fixes. Generally, I really like them.

[size=+2]Duration[/size]:

I like the Duration, Permanent. However, I never did understand why there weren't other durations between what we already have. Such as:

Duration, Concentration (0 MP)
Duration, Short (1 MP) - 10 minutes
*Duration, ???? (2 MP) - 30 minutes
Duration, Medium (3 MP) - 1 hour
*Duration, ???? (4 MP) - 5 hours
*Duration, ???? (5 MP) - 10 hours
*Duration, ???? (6 MP) - 14 hours
*Duration, ???? (7 MP) - 18 hours
Duration, Long (8 MP) - 1 day

Obviously, all the ones with * are the ones I added in. It just makes sense to have those individual MPs in there. When you want something to last as long as it can, and you NEVER have enough MPs, it's extremely useful to have options for each MP instead of going from 1 to 3 to 8. Just my $0.02 there. (Oh, I think Contingency should work the same way.)


[size=+2]Transform:[/size]

Cosmetic changes - Creatures: Like the addition.

Cosmetic changes - Objects: Like this also. But, does this mean that I can use TransForm Nature with 1 for area and make a blade of grass 10' in size? Or a toothpick into a 10' long plank? (Ooooo... I see the ole' pebble-into-bolder trick coming on...) Don't know if there should be some sort of limit besides "but you cannot increase their size to larger than the spell’s area of effect." Or, maybe it's just my evil, devious mind. ::wry smile::

Size changes:
First of all, using the tables provided, it looks like you would get NO penalties for going smaller. I think I'm seeing a copy/paste error. I would guess that the strength and reach penalties should be highest at Fine and work it's way down. Should be opposite of increase size.

Secondly, it seems strange to have to spend 8 MPs to go from Gargantuan to Colossal, but only 4 to go from Medium to Large. (Or, for that matter, if you want to be silly about it, it takes 3 MPs to go from Medium to Medium.) Could you have something like a progressive system something like:
Size increases:
+2 MPs for each size category
+1 Str for each size category
+5 ft. reach for every 2 size categories beyond medium

Don't know if it would work with everything else in the system. I recognize that it's not as easy to figure everything, either. Just a different point of view.

Additionally, I have to say that I really like how you did the "greater of the two costs" for size change and transforming into a strong creature. Kudos. Makes a lot of sense.

(Believe me, I understand what you're going through trying to balance Transform. I had similar issues when I was trying to build my own system that I've mentioned before. And that was before CR's existed.)


[size=+2]Translate:[/size]
Have to agree that this should be it's own thing. I like it.


All in all, very good changes. Now, if I can just figure out how to get these changes into the PDF without buying Adobe Acrobat... ::wry smile::

Michael

 

[Verequus]

I do like the changes, too, but I want to protest, that the rules clarifications and changes are going into Lyceian Arcana. It should not only remain pure regarding its goal to include options, but with the planned major update of EoMR itself the changes would clutter uselessly a second book. Even if you put that section into the appendix, it would waste paper, if I print the entire book without considering to exclude the respective pages - and that is relatively easy to forget.

Next to mbgroves remarks, which I agree, I found the following.

"Similar saves are allowed in the cases of blind creatures being attacked my enemies affected by illusions that make them silent, and so on with other senses." Should be that word not "by"?

Translate is a little bit odd with being it only a kind of Action type, but neither I see better alternative nor would Spell Expertise/Mastery make sense for it. Comparing to the original version, it lost its DC to beat and the Decode function. Is the last intentional, too? At least, the +10 to the check is gone - I've never understood this rule, how to apply it, but I simply put it on the pile of history.

Hmm, that is it.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Transform...

All the changes look good, altho I think Transform can still use a little more work.

I would highly suggest using the MM rules for increases in size, and have the cost to increase be half the increase in strength. Flip the scale for a decrease in size.

Here are the appropriate tables from the SRD:

Table: Changes to Statistics by Size
Old*	New       Str	Dex	Con	Nat Armor   AC/Attack
Fine	Dimin	Same	–2	Same	Same	     –4
Dimin	Tiny	+2	–2	Same	Same	     –2
Tiny	Small	+4	–2	Same	Same	     –1
Small	Medium	+4	–2	+2	Same	     –1
Medium	Large	+8	–2	+4	+2	     –1
Large	Huge	+8	–2	+4	+3	     –1
Huge	Gargan	+8	Same	+4	+4	     –2
Gargan	Colossal	+8	Same	+4	+5	     –4
*Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size.

Table: Increased Damage By Size
Old Damage (Each)*	New Damage
     1d2	                                  1d3
     1d3	                                  1d4
     1d4	                                  1d6
     1d6	                                  1d8
     1d8	                                  2d6
     1d10	                                  2d8
     2d6	                                  3d6
     2d8	                                  3d8
* Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size category.

I also grant a change in the base move of 5' per, and an increase in Face/Reach by 5' at Large and at Gargantuan. A similar decrease in Face/Reach by 5' at Tiny and Fine. Not sure if that matches the MM, but it comes close.

Decreasing size is the direct opposite as far as stat changes.

Strong creature enhancement.. was there ever a line about the CR being higher than current? My character is a CR 2 (Drow).. so to transform into anything CR 2 or less should be 0MP {same size of course} right? Changing into a CR 3 would cost 2MP.. or am I just lost on this?


Translate.. Good idea! Any reason for not making it Translate {Creature}? This way you could emulate the various 'Speak with X' spells. Druids could have Translate {animal}, Bards would go for Translate{Humanoid}.
Techincally you could also have a Translate {alignment} if you are using the alignment languages, which I don't.

Last, I agree with both above posters, on the duration and on the not including into TEOM:LA. Much better as either a seperate errata.

 

[RangerWickett]

I suppose we can include it in a separate document file included in the zip. I just want to make sure it's included with the book somehow, because some of the new material uses the changes in the rules.

Size shifting alters only Strength (and even then the bonus is less than the Monster Manual would suggest) because:

A) the normal changes are really significant, and I didn't want people to have to pay tons if they just wanted to get a little taller.
B) I wanted to make sure Transform can't trump Infuse and Abjure for stat-boosting.
B) book-keeping all the changes that would normally happen is a pain.

I think some of you might have misread the table just a bit, though. Each entry's cost is how much it takes to go to that size from the nearest size above or below (depending on if you're enlarging or shrinking).

Thus, a human becoming a diminutive toad takes 5 MP (1 to go small, 1 to tiny, 3 to diminutive). A human turning into a 40-ft. tall gargantuan human takes 14 MP (4 to large, 4 to huge, 6 to gargantuan).


High-CR creatures don't get a discount to shapeshifting. Imagine a 1st level storm giant shaman (CR 13) transforming himself into a beholder (CR 13) by spending only a cantrip. Sure, his raw power level doesn't increase too much, but he would gain much more flexibility than a normal 1st level mage could.


With the durations, I wanted to keep durations simple. In general, an encounter won't last more than a minute, unless it's a very strange one. For those strange, long encounters, use the 10 minute duration. For an extended scene where you don't want your spells to wear off, use the hour duration. For complete security, use the day duration. Anything between those is just liable to cause frustration. In my games, I don't track time that closely, and honestly the durations are meant to be a little fuzzy.

Player: "Has it been an hour yet?"
DM: "No, your spell is still good for a little while yet."

I just don't think getting more specific than that is necessary. Individual groups can of course decide otherwise.


Good point about the toothpick to board thing. I don't see it as much of a problem, unless you want your character to go around with elaborately-detailed miniatures of useful items, which he can enlarge when needed.

As for pebble to boulder, remember the rules override in Transform that says you cannot use Transform as an attack spell. It just doesn't work that way. You could turn pebbles into a boulder and roll the boulder down the hill, but you can't put a pebble on someone's head and then crush them by enlarging it.

Any other comments?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Transform ..size

As to the the number crunching.. I would rather a Transform size increase grants the same basic benefits as changing into larger creature.

Yes.. I know that sentence sounds weird.

An Merrow is basically a Large Humanoid with a swim speed. So, changing Dax into a Large Dax or into a Merrow should grant basically the same benefits. Using the MM table I end up with two differences: Large Dax has a higher dexterity (18) and a Move of 45, Merrow Dax has a low dexterity (12) and a Move of 30, Swim of 40.

It does step on the toes of the Infuse/Abjure lists alot, as it would cost almost 30 MP to do this with Infuze and Abjure, however just turning into a Merrow will do that. Either way it would cost Dax 7 MP to cast.
As GM, I only allow Transforms/Summons for creatures that the player has prewritten up on either a card or a sheet of paper. This keeps it from slowing down gameplay and almost eliminates the book-keeping.

I don't know. Transform/Poly has always been really hard to balance in game, both as ease of use and equivilient power. A big part of why I have been playing Dax is to test the balance of these lists, and the biggest bang for my buck has been to transform my partners into Ogres. Strong wizards are usually not a problem.. strong monks and fighters tho :\
Perhaps to trim it down a bit, make Transform a Personal list, and have an enhancement to allow for changing someone else.. kinda the Poly-self/Poly-other route. This would make Infuse/Abjure the route for Buffing and Transform the route to go for specialty mage. Its not quite as useful to only be able to change yourself.
Maybe +4MP to target someone else?
Another +2 for any additional targets? This would emulate the Mass-Poly.

BTW, I was planning on only adding a size increase rule, and the MP cost of this one makes alot of sense.

As a side thought.. possible reduction in MP cost for turning into a smaller version of something? For instance Dax turning into a Small Merrow, by these rules, would still cost 7MP {6 for the CR3 +1 for smaller creature} and would grant a significantly reduced dexterity and a Swim speed of 20. But I guess having gills could be worth it.

Another side note: Any plan on incorperating my comments on creating Poisen?

 

[RangerWickett]

Another side note: Any plan on incorperating my comments on creating Poisen?

As it stands right now, poison can be created with just a normal Create Life 1/Create Nature x spell, with the MP cost depending on the cost of the poison. Creating specialty poisons is a fairly niche effect, and I haven't done enough work with poisons in game mechanics or in real life to feel comfortable working on them. Crafting your own poisons with Craft (alchemy)would be a cool way to get a GM to let you create the same poisons with magic.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Poison..

Characters with the skills of Craft Charged Item, Knowledge Poison and Alchemy can create poisons through spell use. The spell costs XP in the amount of (total MP of the Evoke|Death * 10 ) and results in a single dose of the poison.. the caster can choose to include a pretty vial for storage if they wish.

Initial portion must include:
Create [Life] 2 enduring
Create [Nature] 1 for the substance
General 1 , 10 minute duration

Individual poisons deals initial damage based on the Evoke Death component. You cannot spend more MP on this component than you have ranks in Alchemy.
The secondary damage is double the initial, but you do not have to pay for it.
In addition, you can chose to trade 1 dice of ability damage for 1 point of ability drain.

For instance, creating viper venom would look like: Total cost, MP 8, XP 40
Create [Life 2] [Nature 1]
General 1
Evoke [Death 4] Ability point damage

Deals initial damage of 1d6 Dex, and secondary damage of 2D6.

I thought of this method since Evoke is supposed to be the damaging list and a normal Create Nature style poison spell would just expire with no ill effects. It also matches up with the Heal MP cost being about half the Evoke Death costs.

Anyway, I digress.. but that happens on a Saturday night! Thanks for listening.. I think I will go read a book now.

 

[Verequus]

Another comment on Transform: I've discovered, that there is no comment regarding the use of Transform spells as a disguise help. Can you change to the mayor of the town? I know, that is stepping on the Illusion list, but "Cosmetic Changes – Creature (0 MP). If you choose this enhancement, you can change the shape and appearance of a creature of the appropriate creature type." can be used for this effect.

BTW, what would someone else see in the following situation: I sit on a stool and in front of me is a glass filled with water, which I take to drink from. But I am disguised with Illusion as a cat, which is too small to reach the glass. Does the glass simply levitate mid-air?

 

[Staffan]

What about the odd Daze-Hold-Stun progression? I would suggest removing Stun from the charm list (and make it something you only do with Evoke Lightning - possibly Evoke Sound as well, but that's beside the point) and add in some other condition. Perhaps Staggered (only a standard or move action) - Dazed (no action) - Stunned (no action and can't defend)?