[Elements Revised] Spell list fixes - proposed
RangerWickett
Legend
Even in skills, languages are a bit freaky, since you don't add up ranks in them; you get them separately. I considered it, but scrapped the idea.
Revised EOM
Ranger Wickett,
When the fixes you proposed become finalized. Are the changes going to be integrated in a new PDF?
I am willing to purchase a new version to get all of the fixes. I will most likely purchase LA, but I would like everything EOM base in one document.
Thanks,
Ranger Wickett,
When the fixes you proposed become finalized. Are the changes going to be integrated in a new PDF?
I am willing to purchase a new version to get all of the fixes. I will most likely purchase LA, but I would like everything EOM base in one document.
Thanks,
RangerWickett
Legend
Right now it's not in our budget to re-layout EOM. The changes are significant enough that a patch would still be a fairly complicated process, so for a while at least the updates will have to be in text form.
I'm thinking of including a copy of a .doc file with LA, and also making the update a free download on the main page. I think also we can update the file on sale of EOM-R so it comes with the updates.
I'm thinking of including a copy of a .doc file with LA, and also making the update a free download on the main page. I think also we can update the file on sale of EOM-R so it comes with the updates.
Couple of thoughts, some of which I think were touched on in the Questions for the Designer thread, but might ought to go into the fixes.
1a) Abjure X. Damage Reduction, Greater. The 3.5 rules do allow for multiple GDRs (such as Good and Adamantine) so change the limitation that it can only be taken once to only twice. Should you specify that frivolous materials cannot be taken? "DR 5/cotton candy" for example.
1b) Abjure X. Add a way to get DR X/- effects.
2) Abjure Death - a mention that it would stop negative energy damage (from core d20 spells), and perhaps a conversion for hp to level (like trade 5 hp of protection to prevent 1 level drain or something like that).
3) Divination - add a way for this or some other skill/list (infuse?) to grant a feat temporarily (in particular weapon proficencies, though there are a few d20 core spells that add other feats as well such as cleave)
4a) Evoke Space - add the major effect: affects both planes simultaneously
4b) Evoke X - add comment that alternate dice can be extrapolated if desired based on average damage?
4c) Evoke X - add comment that spell can be made area effect and no save by reducing the damage by 1/2 when creating spell (e.g., a 3 MP spell gives 4d6 damage with either an attack roll or save for 1/2; or a 3 MP spell can give 2d6 damage no save and no attack required.)
5) Move Death - example has at reduce level 1 metal becoming dirt (which should be becoming stone...or remove stone level).
6) Move Force - perhaps add an enhancement that allows the spell to be used for attacks (ala Spiritual Weapon).
7) Scry Special Vision - add guidelines of how to get other senses (Scent, tremorsense, etc.)
8) Transform - add a way to add a template to creatures (when transoforming into a completely different creature this is no problem just add the template CR adjustment to the new creature form, but if adding a template to an existing creature (such as the caster) make the cost related to Level Adjustment perhaps to balance the effectiveness for PCs).
9) Core d20 spells are frequently limited in effect (for example only granting an attack bonus and not a damage bonus as is normal for infuse force). Include a mechanic (in errata or LA) for allowing a way to take that into effect. We discussed earlier that it isn't much of a limitation for mages who can change their spells on the fly, but couldn't it apply to signature spells somehow as those can't be changed on the fly.
Then a couple of questions regarding "why you did it that way."
1) Infuse that grants a Strength bonus you double the bonus on, why?
2) Evoke Death doesn't do double damage on a crit, yet most of the d20 effects that create similar effects do, why not for EoM?
And one clarification question.
1) Abjure Life, will this provide the "Other" bonus on Table 3.3 (and others) for most living creatures...thus giving a better bonus than Nature while still affecting most creatures (not undead, elementals, and constructs)?
1a) Abjure X. Damage Reduction, Greater. The 3.5 rules do allow for multiple GDRs (such as Good and Adamantine) so change the limitation that it can only be taken once to only twice. Should you specify that frivolous materials cannot be taken? "DR 5/cotton candy" for example.
1b) Abjure X. Add a way to get DR X/- effects.
2) Abjure Death - a mention that it would stop negative energy damage (from core d20 spells), and perhaps a conversion for hp to level (like trade 5 hp of protection to prevent 1 level drain or something like that).
3) Divination - add a way for this or some other skill/list (infuse?) to grant a feat temporarily (in particular weapon proficencies, though there are a few d20 core spells that add other feats as well such as cleave)
4a) Evoke Space - add the major effect: affects both planes simultaneously
4b) Evoke X - add comment that alternate dice can be extrapolated if desired based on average damage?
4c) Evoke X - add comment that spell can be made area effect and no save by reducing the damage by 1/2 when creating spell (e.g., a 3 MP spell gives 4d6 damage with either an attack roll or save for 1/2; or a 3 MP spell can give 2d6 damage no save and no attack required.)
5) Move Death - example has at reduce level 1 metal becoming dirt (which should be becoming stone...or remove stone level).
6) Move Force - perhaps add an enhancement that allows the spell to be used for attacks (ala Spiritual Weapon).
7) Scry Special Vision - add guidelines of how to get other senses (Scent, tremorsense, etc.)
8) Transform - add a way to add a template to creatures (when transoforming into a completely different creature this is no problem just add the template CR adjustment to the new creature form, but if adding a template to an existing creature (such as the caster) make the cost related to Level Adjustment perhaps to balance the effectiveness for PCs).
9) Core d20 spells are frequently limited in effect (for example only granting an attack bonus and not a damage bonus as is normal for infuse force). Include a mechanic (in errata or LA) for allowing a way to take that into effect. We discussed earlier that it isn't much of a limitation for mages who can change their spells on the fly, but couldn't it apply to signature spells somehow as those can't be changed on the fly.
Then a couple of questions regarding "why you did it that way."
1) Infuse that grants a Strength bonus you double the bonus on, why?
2) Evoke Death doesn't do double damage on a crit, yet most of the d20 effects that create similar effects do, why not for EoM?
And one clarification question.
1) Abjure Life, will this provide the "Other" bonus on Table 3.3 (and others) for most living creatures...thus giving a better bonus than Nature while still affecting most creatures (not undead, elementals, and constructs)?
Last edited:
Kemrain
First Post
I know I'm not RangerWickett, but, I have some feedback and suggested andwers for these questions.
2, Consistancy. You only have a chance to crit when you make a touch attack, and you could easily have AoE Level Drain. It's not a bad idea, it's just not been implamented. Double all numeric effects on a crit? Rounds of stunning? Etc? Should this be just a Death thing, or are we beefing up all Evoke spells?
- Kemrain your Friendly Neighborhood Not-RangerWickett.
Good idea. Should be fixed. Personally, I'd suggest an even cheaper way of adding DR X/Blah OR Blablah, like many outsiders have (This is Greater DR but with 2 penetration options, thus, cheaper.)astriemer said:
Also a good idea! I think this was spelled out in the origional EoM, but it needs to be here, too.
This would be very hard to do fairly, given thatyou'd need to come up with pricing for each feat, or a guideline for costing them. Not all feats are created equally, and some are just better than others. Which would you rather gain with a 3MP spell, Dodge, or Spring Attack? Making someone pay for each feat the new one requires (that they don't already have) and infuse your ability scores up to meet the prereq's could be a start, but this idea would need to be thoroughly tested for balance issues, even though it's a great one.
A, I agree with. Evoke Space should be the Evoke Force that effects inanimate objects, too. B, I don't understand. C, why bother restricting it to AoE spells? All this does is trump Evasion at the cost of reducing damage to all. Isn't that balanced, even on a ray?
I noticed that myself. There's a slightly screwey example under Enhance Skills in Infuse [Element] too. Infuse Water 3 gives 12, not 8. But that's nit-picky.
As I suggested in my EoM Houserules thread, I think you should be able to do this. I'd also like to see it clarafied if you can either move objects or perform combat maneuvers, or both, with one casting of Move Force? If both, the spell is exceedingly useful.
Good idea. I'd like to see this.
YES! I'd kill small puppies to get this in there. Metaphores aside, I'd muchly enjoy this option, or at least guidelines on Transform other than simply the sizing mods (which is a GREAT start, but not enough.)
What if I want a +2 to Fort saves, but not Reflex and Will? What if all I need is a static bonus to damage? If anything, this makes making magic items very interesting, as you can customize to your heart's content. Very cool idea. I like muchly.
I can try to field these... 1, Because there's cheap ways of purchasing effects that simply grant Climb/Fly/Swim speeds, making rolling pointless. But if you can get +24 to Jump from a 3MP spell, it's worth it again.
2, Consistancy. You only have a chance to crit when you make a touch attack, and you could easily have AoE Level Drain. It's not a bad idea, it's just not been implamented. Double all numeric effects on a crit? Rounds of stunning? Etc? Should this be just a Death thing, or are we beefing up all Evoke spells?
Yes?
- Kemrain your Friendly Neighborhood Not-RangerWickett.
Last edited:
But feats cost always one slot and are priced the same, even if they aren't entirely balanced. You have still to differentiate them after the prerequisites though - every prerequiste adds one MP, for example.Kemrain said:
B means: Instead gaining 4d6 you use 6d4 - somewhere in the Designer thread this option is buried.
Thanks for the feedback!
Excellent point, I hadn't thought about that combination. Maybe for 1 MP you get limited greater DR where you must specify an element and an alignment where either one bypasses.
I was assuming that to get a feat that required prereqs that you meet the prereqs first, either normally or through other magical enhancements. Perhaps include some guidelines as a beta for erratta'ing in LA?
In particular I was wanting a way to give proficiency with a particular weapon that might be created by the spell.
B was a statement to allow for changing damage types for dice. 1d4+1 is the same average damage as 1d6 so shouldn't I be able to specify that if I wanted to? For example, what if I want to more closely simulate the core magic missile?
C, I wasn't intending to say that it should necessarily only apply to AoE spells or single target spells. Yes, the primary purpose is to trump Evasion, and regarding balance, there are a lot of core spells that do it (again, magic missle being the classic example, but Ice Storm is another good example (with AoE as well)).
That's a good point I hadn't considered. With spells there is the problem of getting a discount for a limitation that isn't really a limitation (because you can whip up another version of the spell 2 rounds later that doesn't have the limitation). For for magic items (as well as signature spells) you don't get to make changes on the fly, so they should be able to get some discount for being limited.
1, Ok, that makes some sense, but I can use Divination to get an effect that makes rolling for Knowledge checks pretty much useless as well and I can use Create instead of craft to make something, so why don't Int checks get the bonus also. I could use an illusion to do Sleight of Hand, so why not Dex also? Etc. Although thinking of the core spells, I see the logic. Jump gives a much better bonus (+10 to +30) than Magecraft (+5) and both are 1st level. So...never mind. %^)
2, Shouldn't consistancy also say though that any attack that requires an attack roll should have a chance to crit and thus double the damage. The Complete Arcana provides some clarification regarding this in the core rules (though not yet part of the SRD). To paraphrase-Any weapon-like spell (one that requires an attack roll and deals damage (hit point, nonlethal, ability or energy drain)) can crit. Any spell that crits does double damage (though only in the first round of damage and only versus a single target if multiple targets are affected). The damage is of the same time as the original damage (cold is cold, negative levels is negative levels, ability damage is ability damage). Only spells that do damage can be doubled (thus no doubling of side effects or penalties).
Great, now you've got me singing, "Kemrain, Kemrain, does whatever a Kemrain can..."
Kemrain said:
Excellent point, I hadn't thought about that combination. Maybe for 1 MP you get limited greater DR where you must specify an element and an alignment where either one bypasses.
Kemrain said:
I was assuming that to get a feat that required prereqs that you meet the prereqs first, either normally or through other magical enhancements. Perhaps include some guidelines as a beta for erratta'ing in LA?
In particular I was wanting a way to give proficiency with a particular weapon that might be created by the spell.
Kemrain said:
B was a statement to allow for changing damage types for dice. 1d4+1 is the same average damage as 1d6 so shouldn't I be able to specify that if I wanted to? For example, what if I want to more closely simulate the core magic missile?
C, I wasn't intending to say that it should necessarily only apply to AoE spells or single target spells. Yes, the primary purpose is to trump Evasion, and regarding balance, there are a lot of core spells that do it (again, magic missle being the classic example, but Ice Storm is another good example (with AoE as well)).
Kemrain said:
That's a good point I hadn't considered. With spells there is the problem of getting a discount for a limitation that isn't really a limitation (because you can whip up another version of the spell 2 rounds later that doesn't have the limitation). For for magic items (as well as signature spells) you don't get to make changes on the fly, so they should be able to get some discount for being limited.
Kemrain said:
1, Ok, that makes some sense, but I can use Divination to get an effect that makes rolling for Knowledge checks pretty much useless as well and I can use Create instead of craft to make something, so why don't Int checks get the bonus also. I could use an illusion to do Sleight of Hand, so why not Dex also? Etc. Although thinking of the core spells, I see the logic. Jump gives a much better bonus (+10 to +30) than Magecraft (+5) and both are 1st level. So...never mind. %^)
2, Shouldn't consistancy also say though that any attack that requires an attack roll should have a chance to crit and thus double the damage. The Complete Arcana provides some clarification regarding this in the core rules (though not yet part of the SRD). To paraphrase-Any weapon-like spell (one that requires an attack roll and deals damage (hit point, nonlethal, ability or energy drain)) can crit. Any spell that crits does double damage (though only in the first round of damage and only versus a single target if multiple targets are affected). The damage is of the same time as the original damage (cold is cold, negative levels is negative levels, ability damage is ability damage). Only spells that do damage can be doubled (thus no doubling of side effects or penalties).
Kemrain said:
Great, now you've got me singing, "Kemrain, Kemrain, does whatever a Kemrain can..."
Kemrain
First Post
Shore! RW ain't doin it (Having a life can do that), so I figgered I should step up.astriemer said:
That's the idea. I mean, how easy is it to bypass DR X/Magic? It makes DR useful and fairly cheap, plus it goves you all that Outsider-y Goodness.
My idea exactly. Could be interesting. I'd like to see it written up.
The same average doesn't make them the same at all. 1d2+3 does the same average damage as 1d6, but it's clearly not even similar. The probability curves are very different. 1d4+1 has a lower max, by a point, and a minimum of 2. The high minimum makes it just plain better- I don't see a reason to ever roll 1d6 if I can do 1d4+1. Higher minimum is "teh good."
I personally don't like to see Magic Missile used as an example of anything but an overpowered spell, but, that's me... I don't know if making the Evasion ability effectively useless (and Improved Evasion completely useless) is fair. Wouldn't it just be better to Evoke Time and force a Will Save, or Death and force a Fort save?
I know you agreed with me, but I dont' feel done. Feel free to skip over the next part if you don't care to read it. It's 100% optional and for my benefit, not to cause trouble.
Strength only effects 3 skills, and you can magically reduce each of them to complete uselessness. Divination suppliments Knowledge, but it's too costly and time consuming to completely do away with Knowledges that way. Illusion gives you a bonus to Hide, Move, Disguise and the like, but it doesn't render them useless by any means. You can, and should hide and move silently while invisible. Spider climb, on the other hand, prevents you from having to ever make a Climb check, as long as the spell lasts. Why jump when you can fly with perfect maneuverability? Swim with a Swim Speed, taking 10 even around hazards... Strength Skill boosts are kinda worthless if you don't get doubled bonuses.
I feel better...
Consistancy in the EoMr rules would mean that only HP damage is multiplied on a critical hit. Stat Damage, while it's called damage, isn't the same, and Negitive Levels aren't even called damage. I think things are simpler if we avoid the doubling of other effects, but that's me. I wouldn't flip out ifit were included, but it would make Evoke Death the bestest Evoke EVAR!
Heehee! I aim to please. (Ain't my fauly my aim's so poor!)Great, now you've got me singing, "Kemrain, Kemrain, does whatever a Kemrain can..."
- Kemrain the Amusing.
Similar Threads
