[Elements Revised] Spell list fixes - proposed

[astriemer]

You can compel someone, "Sleep!" but that requires them to fall asleep naturally. But the new text of daze makes it flexible, so if you cast a strong daze to make someone helpless, you can choose to have them just be paralyzed but conscious, or to make them asleep. Your choice.

Won't that prevent the "1st level" sleep effect, as the minimum MP to cast a sleep spell will be 4 MP?

 

[RangerWickett]

Yeah, but realize that sleep is an instant kill spell, pretty much. They fail their save, your buddy runs over and coup de graces them.

 

[astriemer]

Table 7.xxyz

Is there a reason why CR 4 from Table 7.xxyz: Transform into Strong Creatures in the proposed errata doesn't follow the pattern as the rest of the CRs?

 

[Kemrain]

Re: Cosmetic Changes - Object...
If I use the Transform Life enhancement and get an animated object, can I increase its size using just area increases, if so that seems like a cheap way to get a large animated object. Or, once you've Transform Life'ed it to a creature, does it have to use the normal Size Change enhancment?

You've made it into a critter, and need Transform Construct to change it, as a creature.

Translate:

RW, this is a HORRIBLE idea! You're de-volving the system back towards Elements of Magic 1. I was thrilled by how seamless you made the system, with your Nouns and Verbs, but now you're gonna give it this big crease... I think that Translation fits fine under Divination - especially if Speak with Plants is Divination fluff! It works, and makes sense, and it's easy, and I think changing it would be... A crime against humanity!

The other changes I like. It's good to see how you modify these things, so I can butcher and reassemble them for my own gamesystem. Much appreciated.

Again, I gotta say, Translate should fall under Divination and not it's own spell list. You're breaking the paradigm you worked so hard to create. I believe there should be no spell lists that don't folow the convention of a Noun and a Verb, but I think making Translate Humanoid, Translate Plant, Translate Animal, is a bad, bad, bad idea - Worse even than breaking the paradigm, though not by much... Spell Lists need to be broad, flexible, and adaptable, and these abilities are weak enough to fall under another category, not be one themselves.

A Crime Against Humanity!

- Kemrain the War Crimes Tribunal.

 

[Archus]

Again, I gotta say, Translate should fall under Divination and not it's own spell list. You're breaking the paradigm you worked so hard to create. I believe there should be no spell lists that don't folow the convention of a Noun and a Verb, but I think making Translate Humanoid, Translate Plant, Translate Animal, is a bad, bad, bad idea - Worse even than breaking the paradigm, though not by much... Spell Lists need to be broad, flexible, and adaptable, and these abilities are weak enough to fall under another category, not be one themselves.

I'll second this sentiment. It was my original one, then I wavered but now I'm back.

I never found using Divination to translate awkward. The Divination skill can be seen as "getting information or knowledge" and language is a form of language or knowledge. You could still use Compel [Creature] to do mind-speech but the knowledge of language is out there for Divination to find. If you really don't think the ability and what it can do - change the name.

The Noun & Verb paradim is nice and elegant. Adding a Verb only "Translate" would break the symmetry. The skills can be seen as meta manipulation and are clean as they are:

• Dispel Magic - Destroying and Controlling magic
• Divination - Gathering information and knowledge (past, present, and future)
• Scry - Sensing things at a distance
• Spellcraft - Analyzing magic

If anything needs changing, I feel that Spellcraft should absorb Dispel Magic and be the raw manipulation, control, and analysis of magic. That reduces the number of skills by one and having spellcraft do all the magic manipulation feels right to me. Right now Spellcraft by itself just doesn't seem like it does enough and controlling magic (overmastery) doesn't quite match up with "dispel". If you don't want to collapse the skill, maybe move the overmastery into spellcraft (the crafting of spells eh) and have only the magic destruction in Dispel.

Translate by itself, just doesn't seem enough to warrant a pick by itself even if it doesn't have the noun verb limits. I'd just take compel humanoid and for 4 mp be able to mentally talk with all humanoids and mess with them as well.

--Archus

 

[RangerWickett]

Is there a reason why CR 4 from Table 7.xxyz: Transform into Strong Creatures in the proposed errata doesn't follow the pattern as the rest of the CRs?

Oh. No there isn't. Typo. Ought to be 8.

 

[RangerWickett]

I suppose I agree with you with Translate. I just don't think a skill check ought to be needed. I'll just make it be a DC 0 check under Divination, but require MP.

Spellcraft doesn't need to get lots of options. I mean, people will take Spellcraft for its mundane purposes, so the magic identification is just added gravy.

 

[Verequus]

If anything needs changing, I feel that Spellcraft should absorb Dispel Magic and be the raw manipulation, control, and analysis of magic. That reduces the number of skills by one and having spellcraft do all the magic manipulation feels right to me. Right now Spellcraft by itself just doesn't seem like it does enough and controlling magic (overmastery) doesn't quite match up with "dispel". If you don't want to collapse the skill, maybe move the overmastery into spellcraft (the crafting of spells eh) and have only the magic destruction in Dispel.

Actually, I think that Overmastery is good option for Dispel Magic - it is a mastery of counterspelling. With Dispel Magic you mess with the magical fabric the spell is consisting of and break it in neat pieces which don't do any harm (hmm, no one did ever include an option, that a failed Dispel Magic could go awry, making the spell to be dispelled wild, because the fabric is damaged. No, that would make Dispel Magic too powerful. Maybe moving it up, so there is an opposed caster level check after succeeding the Dispel chack - if the opponent succeeds then the spell goes wild instead fizzling into nothing.), while Overmastery is the reconstructing of those neat pieces after your image. It would be a nice feat to change the Overmastered spell even more - Ryan, did you include this proposal into Lyceian Arcana?


And to translate - the DC 0 solution is the best one, I've seen here!

 

[RangerWickett]

I've got some new options for overmaster in LA. Which, by the way, has 75% of its art in, so we'll probably start layout Monday.

I just remembered what my problem with Translate being Divination was - you need 5 ranks in Divination if you want to translate well, which means you might as well also be seeing the future. I know a lot of characters who don't want to see the future, since it wouldn't fit their character concept.

Oh well. Divination still works well enough.

 

[Archus]

I've got some new options for overmaster in LA. Which, by the way, has 75% of its art in, so we'll probably start layout Monday.

Excellent. I'm looking forward to starting a d20 game after the new year.