[Elements Revised] Spell list fixes - proposed

[RangerWickett]

Another comment on Transform: I've discovered, that there is no comment regarding the use of Transform spells as a disguise help. Can you change to the mayor of the town? I know, that is stepping on the Illusion list, but "Cosmetic Changes – Creature (0 MP). If you choose this enhancement, you can change the shape and appearance of a creature of the appropriate creature type." can be used for this effect.

BTW, what would someone else see in the following situation: I sit on a stool and in front of me is a glass filled with water, which I take to drink from. But I am disguised with Illusion as a cat, which is too small to reach the glass. Does the glass simply levitate mid-air?

Oh, okay. I forgot the obligatory "+10 to Disguise checks" thing. I'll put it in somewhere.

And I'd say that the kitty stands up on two feet, puts its forepaws on the bar, then picks up the glass with its forepaws and drinks. Wouldn't that be adorable?

 

[RangerWickett]

What about the odd Daze-Hold-Stun progression? I would suggest removing Stun from the charm list (and make it something you only do with Evoke Lightning - possibly Evoke Sound as well, but that's beside the point) and add in some other condition. Perhaps Staggered (only a standard or move action) - Dazed (no action) - Stunned (no action and can't defend)?

Actually, I plan to cut out the sleep mode of Charm (which was basically a variant of hold person), and changing the daze progression to:

Dazed
Stunned
Helpless

Dazed is already available in the core rules as a cantrip. Stunning is available to first level monks. And Helpless nicely covers both holding someone and putting them to sleep.

 

[Staffan]

Actually, I plan to cut out the sleep mode of Charm (which was basically a variant of hold person), and changing the daze progression to:

Dazed
Stunned
Helpless

Dazed is already available in the core rules as a cantrip. Stunning is available to first level monks. And Helpless nicely covers both holding someone and putting them to sleep.

Ah, that works too. Just as long as "stunned" is a less severe condition than "helpless."

Also note that a minor area-effect stun is available to 3rd level clerics, 4th level bards, and 3rd level psions (sound burst, energy stun). So it fits with being available at pretty low levels. Though in both those cases it's more of a side effect of being damaged, which would fit more with Evoke [whatever].

 

[Verequus]

And I'd say that the kitty stands up on two feet, puts its forepaws on the bar, then picks up the glass with its forepaws and drinks. Wouldn't that be adorable?

Yes, it would, but what if the illusion would show me even smaller? Like an ant? Would it result in a disbelieve?

 

[Archus]

Overall I like the additions, here are some specific comments.

* I was worried about Translate [Creature] because it seemed to take up a whole list for not much value. Once I saw that there would be a single Translate list I was happier. But I can see some value in Translate [Creature] to simulate the focused spells like "speak with plants", but I still think that it wouldn't quite be worth it for a whole list.

* I like the addition of size changes, but what if I want to reduce something Gargantuan to Diminutive?

* Transforming willing targets seems ok in clost. What if the cost to change an unwilling target was based on the difference in his CR and the CR - it should be harder to turn a dragon into a whale than a peasant. Maybe that is captured in their save though.

* Speaking of dragon->whale, what about deadly transformations?

--Archus

 

[RangerWickett]

Yes, it would, but what if the illusion would show me even smaller? Like an ant? Would it result in a disbelieve?

No, not necessarily. A creature might think, "Huh, that's odd," and choose to disbelieve, but you wouldn't get an automatic save just for seeing it.

Overall I like the additions, here are some specific comments.

* I was worried about Translate [Creature] because it seemed to take up a whole list for not much value. Once I saw that there would be a single Translate list I was happier. But I can see some value in Translate [Creature] to simulate the focused spells like "speak with plants", but I still think that it wouldn't quite be worth it for a whole list.

* I like the addition of size changes, but what if I want to reduce something Gargantuan to Diminutive?

* Transforming willing targets seems ok in clost. What if the cost to change an unwilling target was based on the difference in his CR and the CR - it should be harder to turn a dragon into a whale than a peasant. Maybe that is captured in their save though.

* Speaking of dragon->whale, what about deadly transformations?

I only included the changes. Anything not mentioned is still the same.

If you want to talk to animals, use Compel to read their minds. If you want to talk to plants, use Divination, and just say the plant thing is for flavor.

Changing a Gargantuan creature to Diminutive size costs as much as the total of all the size changes in sequence. Gargantuan to huge (0 MP), huge to large (0 MP), large to medium (0 MP), medium to small (1 MP), small to tiny (1 MP), tiny to diminutive (3 MP). So a total of 5 MP for a willing creature, or 9 MP for an unwilling creature.

 

[mbgrove]

Transform

Hmmm... I think one of us is getting confused. As far as I know, we're just talking about changing size, not transforming into another creature. If that is the case, changing from Small to Medium shouldn't cost 3 MP, nor should going from Large to Huge cost 4 MP. Why would it cost me a bunch of MP to change to a size that gives me nothing? (Game mechanic-wise, not role-playing-wise. I believe we're basically talking game mechanics here.) I suppose I see the size just as just that: a size change. There's nothing inherently unbalancing about changing size, with just the bonus' you gave.

It almost seems like we're getting size change and "Transform into Strong Creature" mixed up, from your example. In the example, RW said that we didn't want a high-CR creature to get a discount to shapeshifting. I don't see how that is possible with what we've got in the fixes. If Mr. Storm Giant Shaman wanted to transform himself into a beholder, which is a CR13 critter, from the way I read it, he would have to spend 7 MP to be able to get the powers and abilities of that CR-level of a critter. That's because of this from the fix doc:

If you turn something into a creature and have it actually possess the ability of that creature, you must choose this enhancement. To determine the MP cost of this enhancement, find the form’s Challenge Rating (CR), and consult the following table.

This is only affected by the size change when they are changing to something of a different size. Such as our friendly neighborhood Storm Giant Shaman changing into a bat. A bat, being a CR nothing, would only cost a cantrip to something that is already diminutive, but Mr. Storm Giant, who is huge, would have to spend a bit of MP of get down to that size.

I think some of you might have misread the table just a bit, though. Each entry's cost is how much it takes to go to that size from the nearest size above or below (depending on if you're enlarging or shrinking).

I would have to disagree with this for multiple reasons. One, this doesn't work like other tables in the system. Take, for instance, the next table in the fixes document, which is the "Transform into Strong Creature". If you want a CR of 7, you don't pay 2+4+6+7+10+12+14 MP, you just pay 14. Secondly, I just don't see it needing 29 MP to go from Diminutive to Colossal when all it does is give you +4 Str and +15 Reach. (Now, I'm assuming here that the Str and Reach aren't cumulative like the MP supposedly are.) That just doesn't make sense. I could see removing the MP cost from the table and stating that you get the listed Str and Reach adjustments for whatever size you have moved to, and having each "level" of size change cost 2 MP. Even at that,it costs 14 MP to change from Diminutive to Colossal. But, hey, that's a big change. But, Gargantuan to Colossal isn't that big of a change in contrast to how big Gargantuan starts out.

Maybe even have a table similar to the attached so that there's no questions as to what is what. (I haven't completed it, just something to give the general idea. Would make it clear, at least.)

Now, no matter which direction we go, PS brought up something that sheds some light on something. In the fixes doc, RW wrote:

Remember, a human becoming Fine gains a +8 size bonus to attack rolls and AC, and a +16 bonus to Hide checks. It might not be the best spell for a warrior, but for a mage, being the size of a fly has great advantages.

Here on the forum, RW said that he wanted to make sure that Transform can't trump Infuse and Abjure for stat-boosting, which is why size shifting only alters Strength (and less of a bonus). However, it appears that you get other bonus' too. What bonus' count and what don't? Are the listed ones the only ones that change and you get all the other inherent bonus'?

Well, I think I've raised enough questions for the moment. Time to clean the house.

Oh, and RW, I did forget the rules override saying you can't use Transform as an attack spell. Whoops! Sorry 'bout that. (Though, what happens if that plank I created just happens to be over a huge pit? Hmmm... ::grin:: )

And, please check out the Excel attachment for the size change table idea.

Michael

 

[astriemer]

Errata Comments

Overall, the fixes look great. I agree with the other posters who are recommending that the errata/fixes not be imbeded in LA. Perhaps they could be included as a patch similar to the one that added the internal links and other mild revisions?

Specific Comments:
Re: Epic progressions...
Have you considered adding a line to the tables that says something like, "for each additional MP spent, do such and such." For example with the Infuse Life Temporary Hit Points table, add a line "for each additional MP spent after 20, increase the Bonus HP by +20 hit points."

Re: Infuse Nature...
Another option for increasing the power of this list would be to let it give Regeneration (Heal [x] can be used to give Fast Healing, but nothing so far gives regeneration other than possibly Transform).

Re: Illusion Force...
Should the last paragraph under Resisting Illusions start, "Similarly, if an invisible illusionary creature deals damage to you"?

The complex Illusion Force seems broken at high MP costs. For 12 MP I can do 20d6 damage and for 20 MP I can do 52d6 damage! Perhaps the illusion should be limited to doing no more than the caster level or total MP spent on the spell d6 damage in a single round.

Re: Cosmetic Changes - Object...
If I use the Transform Life enhancement and get an animated object, can I increase its size using just area increases, if so that seems like a cheap way to get a large animated object. Or, once you've Transform Life'ed it to a creature, does it have to use the normal Size Change enhancment?

Re: Size Change...
Regarding the table, I agree that it should be more like the other tables and not be cumulative.
Looking at the size changing spells in the core rules however, I notice that there aren't really any spells that allow you to change your size more than one category (with the exception of a WuJen spell in the new Complete Arcane). There are two basic size changing spells...the Enlarge/Reduce pair and Righteous Might. Given them as a guideline for starting perhaps Size Change could be simplified to the following:
Enlarge/Reduce (2 MP). With this enhancement, you can change a creature's size, but not its exterior shape. The spell causes the creature's height to double/halve, and its weight to increase/decrease by a factor of 8. This changes the creature's size category to the next larger/smaller one. The target gains a +2/-2 size bonus/penalty to Strength, a -2/+2 size penalty/bonus to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1/+1 penalty/bonus to attack rolls and AC due to its changed size. This enhancement does not stack with any other size changing magic.
Size Change (8 MP). With this enhancement, you can change a creature's size, but not its exterior shape. This spell causes the creature to increase or decrease by one size category with all resultant changes. This enhancement does not stack with any other size changing magic (if keeping to the core rules); or, This enhancement stacks only with its own size changing magic (to allow for greater than one size change category).

The MP costs are similar to those core rule equivalent spells. I don't think the 8 MP cost trumps the 8 MP that you sould spend using the Infuse spell list to get the same strength bonus as there are other penalties associated with the size change (in particular the attack/AC penalty), however, it is more flexible then the single Infuse spell list so perhaps the cost should be 10 MP per size change. This would keep things less complicated (as RW has indicated that he wants to do), while allowing for the flexibility to just change size and not form. I think that this would also allow you to remove the paragraph under Creature Form that has you comparing tables as well.

Re: Creature Form...
Would the cost for creatures above CR 10 increase at a +1 CR per 2 MP spent rate?
Clarification: If you are transforming someone into a Swarm form would you just pay for the resultant CR or would you also have to pay for the Splitting enhancement?
Clarification: If you transform into a creature that can summon other creatures do you get that ability? For that matter do you gain all the spell-like abilities or only extraordinary and supernatural?

Re: Manifest...
Why not just describe intangible as incorporeal instead of as a manifesting ghost?
Clarification: Can an intangible creature launch physical attacks or must they have the ghost touch property to do so?
Would the Gaseous Form spell effect just be another option for Manifest? Thus an intangible creature functions as either an incorporeal creature or as a gaseous creature at the caster's choice upon creating the spell.

Re: Translate...
This seems like an odd spell list. Might it be better represented as another magical skill instead?

If it is a spell list, it seems that the ESP/Telepathy powers from the Compel list would more naturally fall in this list (perhaps called Communication). The Compel lists would still have to have the ability to communicate a command telepathyically, but wouldn't allow for two way communication. Then the list would also have the [Creature] type associated with it.

Re: Divination...
Are you still considering adding the ability to use this skill to temporarily give access to a feat? (Such as when Tenser's Transformation gives the target the ability to use the Martial Weapons Proficiency feat). If so, would that be part of the errata/additional spell options?

 

[astriemer]

Where will sleep be going then?

 

[RangerWickett]

Where will sleep be going then?

You can compel someone, "Sleep!" but that requires them to fall asleep naturally. But the new text of daze makes it flexible, so if you cast a strong daze to make someone helpless, you can choose to have them just be paralyzed but conscious, or to make them asleep. Your choice.