Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.

[slobster]

The way I'm reading it, the fighter can make two attacks in the first two rounds of combat. After that, he's too tired to fight that way the rest of the day.

In 4e terms, the 5e adventuring day is one big encounter, and these abilities are your "nova" abilities that you would want to use as early and as often as possible.

Unless there is a reason to wait for the opportune moment to get the biggest bang for your buck, so to speak. In 5E that might be advantage. The fighter should wait for a time when he has advantage to use his extra action, otherwise it wouldn't be as powerful as it would be if he did. Not only that, but he should wait until he can really unload on an enemy(ies) that can take the extra beating. No reason to attack an enemy bugbear and get him down to 2 hp, then burn your extra action just to finish the job that anyone else in the party could have done as well, without using up daily resources.

I don't know if DDN has it right, yet, in encouraging the fighter to use his limited-use ability strategically, but it seems possible to me in theory.

 

[Li Shenron]

I hate the concept of martial dailies.

But these 2 abilities don't bother me. Why? Because they are not really martial...

Extra actions or rerolls per day are so generic that they can only be explained with luck OR with some learned ability to "push yourself" over the top, in which case a daily limit is not that terrible.

What I would not tolerate easily would be special manouvers, attacks or similar techniques limited per day. Anyone doing sports or martial arts knows that you have a limit on how much of it you can do in a day (and also in a single session with no rest), but it is always a limit of your whole stamina, not separate limits on each specific thing like "I've already maxed my high-jumping attempts today, but I still have a few long-jumping attempts to use".

 

[Mengu]

The fighter should wait for a time when he has advantage to use his extra action, otherwise it wouldn't be as powerful as it would be if he did.

Agree with that, which is a reason to try and gain advantage as early as possible as well, maybe with help from a wizard who knocks the target prone with Grease, which incidentally makes for good team play.

No reason to attack an enemy bugbear and get him down to 2 hp, then burn your extra action just to finish the job that anyone else in the party could have done as well, without using up daily resources.

Don't necessarily agree with that. You either use the extra action to try and take it down, or risk suffering up to 10 points of damage if the bugbear's initiative is before your allies', or your allies miss. Even on a miss, the fighter can take it down, if it only has 2 hit points left, so the extra action is worthwhile.

 

[slobster]

Don't necessarily agree with that. You either use the extra action to try and take it down, or risk suffering up to 10 points of damage if the bugbear's initiative is before your allies', or your allies miss. Even on a miss, the fighter can take it down, if it only has 2 hit points left, so the extra action is worthwhile.

It's a cost-benefit. What is the chance that my allies can take it down before it acts? Now what is the chance that it hits me even if it survives the round, and how painful would that likely be?

Now compare that to the opportunity cost of spending your daily power now. Will you wish you'd conserved it later? What is the chance that it would be more useful, and able to bring down a more dangerous enemy faster, later in the day?

 

[Herschel]

What is this talk about elephants? I didn't find them in the playtest bestiary...

Start from the bottom/back and work your way forward. It's behind the Gazebo.

 

[Remathilis]

This became my problem.

Lets say my rogue knew this neat trick: I can make a deadly strike and then switch places with an ally (aka hide behind the tank, aka king's castle). I'm going through the Dungeon of the Orc King. We go a fight in and I use my deadly trick: These orcs are stupid! Except now, I can't pull that trick on ANYONE ELSE in the dungeon, no matter if they didn't see me do it or not. Everyone else is now too smart to fall for it. So after another room, we rest and RESET: The orcs forgot my trick and will TOTALLY FALL FOR IT again, until after I've used it once and I can't use it again until we rest.

The logic behind explaining it bends: Did I get lucky and try it on the only two orcs in the dungeon that would fall for it? Was it a lucky combination talent, placement and distraction that just so happened to happen twice in the same dungeon, once on each day I was there? Did my rogue forget how the trick worked after using it, only to remember it the next morning? Did every orc get wise to my trick (even the ones who didn't see it) and then forget after they went to sleep (everyone suffers from short term memory loss?) Blah!

 

[ferratus]

The Fighter dailies and rogue dailies described in 5e are similar to barbarian rages in 3e. If that didn't bother you then, it shouldn't bother you now.

For myself, I'd rather give the fighter stances instead, or special attacks that trigger off a good die roll than give them daily powers. In other words, I want the barbarian to rage all the time, the fighter to fight better all the time, and the rogue to fight dirty all the time.

 

[nnms]

I thought Gamma World with no dailies and nothing linked to daily refreshing was much better than 4E as a self contained game.

I'm thinking no daily abilities whatsoever might be what I want out of fantasy gaming. Some sort of magic point ability for spells that trickle refreshes (or can be supplemented by sacrificing your own life force/hit points). No daily exploits or abilities.

Perhaps exploits could refresh/unlock based on situation based triggers. Adrenaline/limit break based ones after you take damage. Follow up rolls if you get a certain result on an attack roll. That sort of thing.

Like chain attacks in the Warmachine miniature game. For example, there are pistol wraiths that if they hit with both of their ghostly dueling pistols get to then make another attack against the target to freeze them. It's called "chain attack: death chill."

Perhaps a nice bonus to critical hits would be that they unlock an opportunity to immediately capitalize on with a trick or move.

 

[Herschel]

Before then, you could pick and choose which power structure you wanted. All at-wills? Play a fighter or rogue. Vancian casting? Play a wizard or cleric. Spontaneous casting? Sorcerer. Mana casting? Psionicist. Rounds per day? Barbarian. Daily abilities? Monk.

At least one of my players won't play each of those, but there are plenty of other options. It's like a buffet. At launch, 4e said "you'll eat this and like it!"
Kinak

Actually it didn't once you got more material past the PHB1, but alas that gets left out of the argument all too often.

Also, there was no Psionicist or Warlock in the 3E PHB, but again that never gets mentioned.

 

[Herschel]

This became my problem.

Lets say my rogue knew this neat trick: I can make a deadly strike and then switch places with an ally (aka hide behind the tank, aka king's castle). I'm going through the Dungeon of the Orc King. We go a fight in and I use my deadly trick: These orcs are stupid! Except now, I can't pull that trick on ANYONE ELSE in the dungeon, no matter if they didn't see me do it or not. Everyone else is now too smart to fall for it. So after another room, we rest and RESET: The orcs forgot my trick and will TOTALLY FALL FOR IT again, until after I've used it once and I can't use it again until we rest.

The logic behind explaining it bends: Did I get lucky and try it on the only two orcs in the dungeon that would fall for it? Was it a lucky combination talent, placement and distraction that just so happened to happen twice in the same dungeon, once on each day I was there? Did my rogue forget how the trick worked after using it, only to remember it the next morning? Did every orc get wise to my trick (even the ones who didn't see it) and then forget after they went to sleep (everyone suffers from short term memory loss?) Blah!

Yet you're okay with a Wizard who has studied his spells for years repeatedly every single day suddenly forgetting it once he casts it?

What's the difference?