Elf Cleric/Ranger
- Thread starter Thanee
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nittanytbone
First Post
I think the Multiclass Feat for a free skill and a handy encounter power (Hunter's Quarry for 2 rounds each fight = 3 more dice of damage with an action point) is worth it alone. I would also definitely grab a Ranger Utility Power -- there are a lot that key off of Wisdom and grant you much needed mobility.
I am thinking of going this route as long as its useful with a character myself, then when I hit paragon, picking up Shield Proficiency and Shield Specialization and ditching the longbow in most situations, retraining anything I had put towards it.
I am thinking of going this route as long as its useful with a character myself, then when I hit paragon, picking up Shield Proficiency and Shield Specialization and ditching the longbow in most situations, retraining anything I had put towards it.
Thanee
First Post
Considering that Hunter's Quarry is basically for free (since adding Perception as a trained skill is worth a feat already), it's definitely a pretty cool feat (despite the errata limiting it a bit, but not too much, 2 rounds should still be useful, especially since it is per encounter, not per day like most other such multiclassing abilities).
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Thanee - the thing is this:
(1) it behoves the basic (battle) Cleric to maximise Strength and Wisdom. Any discrepancy between these two abilities, and a chunk of the battle Cleric's prayers are weaker than the rest in attack and damage.
(2) there's no PHB1 race that gives +2 Str/+2 Wis, so 18s in both is unaffordable unless your DM is allowing other races. This may change, but for most games played now the melee Cleric is setting out with 16/16, 16/18, or 17/17.
(3) once Str and Wis are assigned, the battle Cleric still needs a decent Con: nor can he ignore Cha completely. There's no wriggle-room; nothing left over for Dexterity or Intelligence. That cuts out some useful feats, including Astral Fire, and requires the reservation of feats for heavy armour and a really good melee weapon which other melee classes already possess.
(4) once you've stopped wriggling, and gone along with the PHB on all this, how good are you in melee? Not as good as the Fighter or Paladin, certainly, nor the Ranger. Not quite as good as the Warlord. Not as frightening as a melee-dedicated Rogue, either. Better than a Warlock or a Wizard. Hmm...
What, then, are the alternatives to towing the PHB Str-and-Wis line?
You can go all Str and low Wis, or all Wis and low Str.
The Wisdom prayers offer more AOEs, more maneuverability, and on the whole (to my mind) slightly more oomph. So the ranged Cleric is a solid option.
Now...the important thing about the ranged Cleric is that he avoids MAD. All his prayers work off Wis. That's the main advantage, and very nice it is too.
However, you are left with a decision - what does the ranged Cleric do with his hands? He doesn't need to hold his symbol. There's not much point holding a melee weapon. A ranged weapon makes much more sense. With a basic ranged Cleric, you're looking at a crossbow or sling...but with an Elf Cleric/Ranger you can do better than that.
There's nothing better a ranged Cleric can be holding in his hands than a longbow. It's a very good weapon in 4E. 1d10 damage, 20/40 range. How many prayers compete with that for range? Even a basic attack with a longbow can be a good thing, and a Cleric/Ranger is also getting a choice of some tasty bow encounter powers at 4th. In addition, as others have pointed out, Ranger exploits often work off Wis, and that makes the Novice encounter and Acolyte utility excellent choices.
In conclusion: it's not that the bow is brilliant in itself: it's that the ranged Cleric has the wriggle-room to use it. Now and then - when range is an issue, for example - it's going to be very useful. The rest of the time, it adds a bit of versatility to a build which is already solid and strongly focussed.
(1) it behoves the basic (battle) Cleric to maximise Strength and Wisdom. Any discrepancy between these two abilities, and a chunk of the battle Cleric's prayers are weaker than the rest in attack and damage.
(2) there's no PHB1 race that gives +2 Str/+2 Wis, so 18s in both is unaffordable unless your DM is allowing other races. This may change, but for most games played now the melee Cleric is setting out with 16/16, 16/18, or 17/17.
(3) once Str and Wis are assigned, the battle Cleric still needs a decent Con: nor can he ignore Cha completely. There's no wriggle-room; nothing left over for Dexterity or Intelligence. That cuts out some useful feats, including Astral Fire, and requires the reservation of feats for heavy armour and a really good melee weapon which other melee classes already possess.
(4) once you've stopped wriggling, and gone along with the PHB on all this, how good are you in melee? Not as good as the Fighter or Paladin, certainly, nor the Ranger. Not quite as good as the Warlord. Not as frightening as a melee-dedicated Rogue, either. Better than a Warlock or a Wizard. Hmm...
What, then, are the alternatives to towing the PHB Str-and-Wis line?
You can go all Str and low Wis, or all Wis and low Str.
The Wisdom prayers offer more AOEs, more maneuverability, and on the whole (to my mind) slightly more oomph. So the ranged Cleric is a solid option.
Now...the important thing about the ranged Cleric is that he avoids MAD. All his prayers work off Wis. That's the main advantage, and very nice it is too.
However, you are left with a decision - what does the ranged Cleric do with his hands? He doesn't need to hold his symbol. There's not much point holding a melee weapon. A ranged weapon makes much more sense. With a basic ranged Cleric, you're looking at a crossbow or sling...but with an Elf Cleric/Ranger you can do better than that.
There's nothing better a ranged Cleric can be holding in his hands than a longbow. It's a very good weapon in 4E. 1d10 damage, 20/40 range. How many prayers compete with that for range? Even a basic attack with a longbow can be a good thing, and a Cleric/Ranger is also getting a choice of some tasty bow encounter powers at 4th. In addition, as others have pointed out, Ranger exploits often work off Wis, and that makes the Novice encounter and Acolyte utility excellent choices.
In conclusion: it's not that the bow is brilliant in itself: it's that the ranged Cleric has the wriggle-room to use it. Now and then - when range is an issue, for example - it's going to be very useful. The rest of the time, it adds a bit of versatility to a build which is already solid and strongly focussed.
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Thanee
First Post
Yeah, I see what you mean... I guess it's a bit of "tradition" being mixed in here, since Clerics used to have so many useful support spells, which were flexible enough to work with any weapon combination, but now are built into their melee attacks (at least there is the occasional power like Weapon of the Gods). 
Anyways, I will just go with it (Elf Cleric with Warrior of the Wild, Abilities in descending order are Wis, Dex, Cha, Con, Str, Int).
Besides, I like the image of the Elven Archer Cleric.
What's Astral Fire? Is Int actually useful as a prerequisite?
Maybe I should swap Str and Int then.
Bye
Thanee
Anyways, I will just go with it (Elf Cleric with Warrior of the Wild, Abilities in descending order are Wis, Dex, Cha, Con, Str, Int).
Besides, I like the image of the Elven Archer Cleric.
What's Astral Fire? Is Int actually useful as a prerequisite?
Maybe I should swap Str and Int then.
Bye
Thanee
azarias said:
Err... why can't a 4e cleric dump con? Two or three extra HPs isn't a big deal in the long run (and you're already a cleric, so an extra healing surge is similarly not a huge deal), and if you're going to stick with the weapons and armor you start with, you won't need it for feat prereqs either.
I call them laser clerics precisely because its sounds horribly stupid.Thanee said:
I got tired of people making fun of my clerics and my lasers, so I've decided to embrace the lasers. I mean, not technically, because they're lasers, and you can't embrace a wave of amplified... uh, I mean, PEW PEW!Anyways, if you're going to multiclass a cleric into ranger, go for it. But how you do it varies depending on what you want to accomplish as a cleric.
If you're a smashy cleric, you can use two weapon powers reasonably well. Since you haven't got default shield proficiency anyways, there's no major problem with taking two weapon powers, then the two weapon fighting feats. You'll get +1 damage with your main weapon at all times, +1 ac, and +1 reflex. Plus whatever you take as ranger powers.
If you're a laser cleric, the only thing you'll really want will be utility powers. But there are some nice synergies in there. Look for abilities that let you slip away when attacked. You're a ranged combatant anyways, so slide away from your attacker, and shoot him in the face with a laser.
If you're a hybrid cleric (yes, its viable, its just tougher) you can choose what you want to accomplish. But I'm assuming that you know what you're doing if you're going hybrid. It might be best not to multiclass a hybrid, simply because you're already a hybrid, and you probably don't need to be a hyhybrid. But if you know what you're doing, there's no real harm.
Lord Sessadore
Explorer
Well, even clerics can't do a whole lot for you when you don't have any healing surges left. But I agree: a few less hp, one less healing surge, and no armor upgrades are not that big of a deal for a ranged cleric, far as I can tell.drothgery said:
Con dump - for a ranged Cleric, this is vaguely possible. For a melee Cleric - which was what I was talking about above - well, a lot less so.
Yes, you can rely on your healing to heal thyself - but you're hardly going to be the party's central melee player, and therefore chances are your healing is needed elsewhere: 4E d&d is a team game like never before, and you're not going to be slaying many dragons by yourself (not in melee, at least): everyone needs the combat hulks up; you make a poor replacement for them if they fall.
So if you're going to storm into melee yourself, you need decent hit points and surges. A mid-level Con - 14 or thereabouts - is going to be a great help for the melee Cleric: the Toughness feat wouldn't go amiss either. A lot of melee Cleric builds have higher Con, too - especially 16 Con Dwarves.
The ranged Cleric, on the other hand, can probably get away with the luxury of a 12 or so in Con. If he's going high Dex, he has less interest in heavy armour feats, and he'll likely lack the Str for those anyway.
But at the risk of repeating myself - if you put the classes in order of melee potency, where does the Str/Wis Cleric appear?
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger
Warlord
(here, maybe?)
Rogue
(or here?)
...with, perhaps, only the Wizard and Warlock coming in lower.
There's a lot to be said for making a ranged 4E Cleric
Yes, you can rely on your healing to heal thyself - but you're hardly going to be the party's central melee player, and therefore chances are your healing is needed elsewhere: 4E d&d is a team game like never before, and you're not going to be slaying many dragons by yourself (not in melee, at least): everyone needs the combat hulks up; you make a poor replacement for them if they fall.
So if you're going to storm into melee yourself, you need decent hit points and surges. A mid-level Con - 14 or thereabouts - is going to be a great help for the melee Cleric: the Toughness feat wouldn't go amiss either. A lot of melee Cleric builds have higher Con, too - especially 16 Con Dwarves.
The ranged Cleric, on the other hand, can probably get away with the luxury of a 12 or so in Con. If he's going high Dex, he has less interest in heavy armour feats, and he'll likely lack the Str for those anyway.
But at the risk of repeating myself - if you put the classes in order of melee potency, where does the Str/Wis Cleric appear?
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger
Warlord
(here, maybe?)
Rogue
(or here?)
...with, perhaps, only the Wizard and Warlock coming in lower.
There's a lot to be said for making a ranged 4E Cleric
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