D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[Micah Sweet]

I'd kill the gnomes and divide their stuff among halflings and dwarves. Halflings can get hippy animal friendship stuff and dwarves can get the tinkering. I think dwarves in particular would benefit from this; they're conceptually very narrow.

Elves are kinda hard to do well. In theory I like them, but I have come to dislike how they seem to have just become "pretty humans." I'd like them to be more ethereal and weird. They often come across just as humans with pointed ears. In my current setting I don't have elves, and the closets equivalent is a species of small weirdoes with horns and tails, which discourages their use as human replacements. In another setting I have been contemplating, I have leaned more into the Celtic origins of the elves, making them more fae and otherworldly.

Also, am I imagining this, or have D&D elves gotten taller over the years? Like I recall that in my redbox D&D they were quite short, but as people didn't think that's cool enough for elves they have gotten progressively taller?

Tolkien elves are usually taller than humans.

 

[Remathilis]

Also, am I imagining this, or have D&D elves gotten taller over the years? Like I recall that in my redbox D&D they were quite short, but as people didn't think that's cool enough for elves they have gotten progressively taller?

You're correct. The average height of elves (in the editions where this is tracked with height weight tables) went from 5 ft average to 6 ft average. I assume the LotR movies, with their tall and pretty elves did a lot to expand that.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Tolkien elves are usually taller than humans.

Yes, and D&D elves being short nicely set them apart.

 

[Corinnguard]

So you have two fundamental problems with trying to define ELF in D&D: subspecies and setting.

D&D has several species of elf: High, Wood, Drow, Sea, Eladrin, Shadar-kai, Astral, Averial, and Wild just to name the most common/recent ones. The overlap shared between ALL these subraces is rather small.

THEN you add on the fact D&D has several settings, each producing different cultures of one or more of the above-mentioned subspecies. Grey elves, valley elves, sun elves, moon elves, Aerenal elves, Tarinadal elves, qualinesti, kagonesti, silvanesti, dusk elves, shadow elves, Vulkoor, Sulatar, Umbragen, Udadrow, Aevendrow, Lorendrow, Athasian elves, and probably even more obscure variants I'm missing elsewhere.

And all of these elves are supposed to be represented by one set of stats in the PHB? I don't think so.

D&D elves HAVE to be bland because look at what they are trying to fit under one roof. If you wanted ELF to have some meaning beyond pointy ears, you set fire to about half those subraces all most of those alternative D&D worlds. Then you might be able to create a consistent vision of elf in D&D.

But nobody is willing to sacrifice 90% of the current D&D settings and their favorite variant of elf to achieve that. So elf will remain broad and vague because of all it has to mean.

I am suddenly glad that Level Up has one Elven heritage and 4 Elven Cultures (High, Wood, Shadow and Eladrin). I have seen some re-skin jobs from Purple Martin Games that were used to recreate the Avariel (Winged Elves) and Aquatic elves in their MoAR: Complete book.

You missed the Rockseer Elves from 2e. https://deepest-darkness.obsidianportal.com/wikis/rockseer-elves This is someone's homebrew take on the Rockseer Elves for PF1.

 

[Minigiant]

• dragonborn
  • draconic
    • breath
    • fear
    • scales
  • proud
  • furious
  • elemental
• dwarves
  • stout
  • tough
  • poison resistant
  • good with earthy craft: masonry, jewelry blacksmith, whitesmith,
  • long lives
  • lover of brews
• elf
  • fey ancestry
  • very long lives
  • keen sight
  • keen hearing
  • divided people
    • transform with culture
  • do not sleep
• halfling
  • small
  • brave
  • lucky
  • quiet
  • charmed life
• gnomes
  • small
  • bright personality
  • bright mind
  • risky
  • long lives
• orc
  • aggressive
  • powerful
  • durable
  • short lived
• teifling
  • cursed
  • fiendish
    • fire, cold, poison, or necrotic resistant
    • natural magic user
  • suspicious

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I am suddenly glad that Level Up has one Elven heritage and 4 Elven Cultures (High, Wood, Shadow and Eladrin). I have seen some re-skin jobs from Purple Martin Games that were used to recreate the Avariel (Winged Elves) and Aquatic elves in their MoAR: Complete book.

I really don't think "winged elves" or "water-breathing elves" should be elves. Like they seem physiologically drastically different. We wouldn't consider tritons or angels to be subspecies of humans.

 

[Corinnguard]

I really don't think "winged elves" or "water-breathing elves" should be elves. Like they seem physiologically drastically different. We wouldn't consider tritons or angels to be subspecies of humans.

This would depend on the setting (WoTC, 3pp or homebrewed) in question. Somewhere, a member of D&D community probably does have tritons or angels as human subraces.

There were a number of races in 3e's Races of Destiny that had the human subtype. Illumians, Mongrelfolk, Sea Kin, Sharakim, Skulk and Underfolk.

 

[Remathilis]

I am suddenly glad that Level Up has one Elven heritage and 4 Elven Cultures (High, Wood, Shadow and Eladrin). I have seen some re-skin jobs from Purple Martin Games that were used to recreate the Avariel (Winged Elves) and Aquatic elves in their MoAR: Complete book.

You missed the Rockseer Elves from 2e. https://deepest-darkness.obsidianportal.com/wikis/rockseer-elves This is someone's homebrew take on the Rockseer Elves for PF1.

I was going from memory with a few lookups for spelling. I missed dozens of variants and probably even more cultures. I know for example I missed most of the environment variants like Arctic elves or desert elves.

And Level Up proves my point: they aren't beholden to support a half-dozen subraces and a dozen settings worth of elves lest people create ire about them removing an important part of the setting by not having elf culture #765. Yet somehow WotC needs to define elf in such a way astral elves, Arenral elves, and Athasian elves are both under one roof.

Which leads to one of two outcomes:

Elf is a broad generic term encompassing hundreds of types and cultures held together by the thinnest of veneers.

Elf is a complex specific species that has deep ties to a certain lore and culture which is done by jettisoning all other setting specific types of elf and only focusing on one settings type of elves.

Elf is either a mile wide and inch deep or a mile deep and an inch wide, but you're not getting both.

 

[Divine2021]

Is it not possible to define such things through culture?

The Rohirrim are quite clearly different from the "Men of Gondor", despite the fact that both of them are human and, thus, should have identical stats.

In the recent LotR works by Free League, The Folk of Dale, Men of Bree, and Wardens of the North are all different regional heritages/races/lineages. That’s why I consistently referred to regions/peoples above. They all have innate stat differences, because the mechanics all purposefully match the lore. It leads to better, more differentiated storytelling.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

In the recent LotR works by Free League, The Folk of Dale, Men of Bree, and Wardens of the North are all different regional heritages/races/lineages. That’s why I consistently referred to regions/peoples above. They all have innate stat differences, because the mechanics all purposefully match the lore. It leads to better, more differentiated storytelling.

What sort of mechanical differences? This seems questionable to me.