Eliminating Eastern Flavor From D&D?

[Darrin Drader]

Remove angels, demons, devils, devas, ogre magi, gold dragons, lamasu, sphinx, tigers, camels, nagas, golems, mummies, and probably a few more.

Remove the monk class. Remove the cleric's ability to turn undead. Remove the wizard. Remove the paladin.

Remove the lute and mandolin.

Remove gypsies, at the very least including halfling caravans and Shadowdancers.

Remove avatars. Remove the the concept of an immortal soul that is joined to the psyche.

Remove coined money. Remove paper and parchment. Remove linen, cotton, and silk.

Remove beer and ale. Remove chickens. Remove cows.

I'm assuming that the absence of Eastern also means the absence of African?

Remove iron.

Also, assuming that this is set in a parallel medieval period rather than a parallel ancient period, you'll also have to remove any philosophy that has its origins in ancient Greece, as those texts were recovered by Muslim scholars and translated, and then re-translated for Europe from the Muslim translations later on. So remove reasoning, democracy, and universities.

 

[pawsplay]

Ahem. Indo-European.

Online Etymology Dictionary



The word devil has a distinct etymological pedigree from deva.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Zeus
supreme god of the ancient Greeks, 1706, from Gk., from PIE *dewos- "god" (cf. L. deus "god," O. Pers. daiva- "demon, evil god," O.C.S. deivai, Skt. deva-), from base *dyeu- "to gleam, to shine;" also the root of words for "sky" and "day" (see diurnal). The god-sense is originally "shining," but "whether as originally sun-god or as lightener" is not now clear.

 

[pawsplay]

By this logic, you shouldn't even play in English because it's an Indo-European language and ultimately originates from Anatolia (mainland Turkey) or the Pontic Steppe (only partly European)

You will have to explain why that is the same logic. English is simply the language being used by the players, whereas divine is a term for an in-game construct.

Also "divine" doesn't come from deva/daeva. The three words have the same root, though.

What are you claiming is the root, incidentally? I know of the Persian daeva/daiva and the Sanskrit daeva/deva split. Divine comes from deus, which does come from that same root.

But "devil" doesn't. It's from Greek dia+ballein "throw across, slander", also of Indoeuropean origin, not Sumerian.

You are probably right about that one. Online dictionary says Hebrew -> Greek.

Bahamut and Tiamat may have Semitic names, but the dnd versions are quite different from the originals myths. Rename them and you’ve got your medieval european dragons.

Do you? Point to a platinum dragon in Western European myth. And the closest thing to Tiamat would be Echidna, mother of monsters, also of Greek origin.

whuh? I’m sure there’s a story.
I’ve never used them anyway. Not because they were Asian, because they looked stupid.

I was being funny. The rust monster, bulette, and umber hulk were inspired from some plastic dinosaur/kaiju toys that were made in China.

 

[pawsplay]

Kudos on possessing all that historical knowledge, but I think you are over thinking this one.

That is a matter of opinion.

He said 'eastern flavor', which probably means things that scream asian, possibly middle eastern. So katana is out, monk is out. But golden dragon is in, because we usually associate it with high fantasy based on Northern Europe in the middle ages. I don't think he is concerned with origins of things, just whether we conciously associate them with Asia.

If you want to "go with your gut," there is no reason to poll ENWorld about what goes into your own ahistorical, non-Eastern based game. If you want input from ENWorld, though, you have to define what it is you want, and do not want.

"Probably no ninjas" is a good starting place, but how do you feel about black pepper? It was generally known to be an importation from the Far East even in the Middle Ages.

What are we supposed to guess about this fantasy world? Some possibilities:

- There is a Cathay (Far East) but it is not part of the campaign world.
- There is a Cathay, but none of the indigenous romances are part of the setting. Instead, Cathay is relatively realistic compared to the European regions, or else characterized by orientalist stereotypes.
- This place is nothing like Earth, but the campaign draws mainly from tropes from a certain time and place in Europe.
- The place is nothing like Earth, and the campaign draws mainly on swords-and-sorcery sources.
- The place is Earth, or Earth-like, but the campaign predates our history, and coincidentally resembles the early Dark Ages more than feudal Japan.

 

[Stoat]

The umber hulk, rust monster and bulette are "of Chinese origin" because they were inspired by cheap plastic toys made in China.

edit: How appropriate that I should be ninja'd

 

[ProfessorPain]

That is a matter of opinion.



If you want to "go with your gut," there is no reason to poll ENWorld about what goes into your own ahistorical, non-Eastern based game. If you want input from ENWorld, though, you have to define what it is you want, and do not want.

I think no eastern flavor is pretty clear and understandable, and I don't think it suggests any kind of hyper historical accuracy. The guy clearly isn't interested in things like black pepper. More information would of course be helpful, but based on the "no eastern flavor" thing, should be able to get plenty of good feedback.

 

[ProfessorPain]

What are we supposed to guess about this fantasy world? Some possibilities:

- There is a Cathay (Far East) but it is not part of the campaign world.
- There is a Cathay, but none of the indigenous romances are part of the setting. Instead, Cathay is relatively realistic compared to the European regions, or else characterized by orientalist stereotypes.
- This place is nothing like Earth, but the campaign draws mainly from tropes from a certain time and place in Europe.
- The place is nothing like Earth, and the campaign draws mainly on swords-and-sorcery sources.
- The place is Earth, or Earth-like, but the campaign predates our history, and coincidentally resembles the early Dark Ages more than feudal Japan.

I dont think we need quess anything about his world, just help him remove things that have asian flavor, like monks and katanas. This isn't some opportunity for us to show how much we know about history and the transmission of culture, he justs wants to know how to remove asian flavor.

 

[pawsplay]

I think no eastern flavor is pretty clear and understandable, and I don't think it suggests any kind of hyper historical accuracy. The guy clearly isn't interested in things like black pepper. More information would of course be helpful, but based on the "no eastern flavor" thing, should be able to get plenty of good feedback.

Maybe it's clear to you that they weren't interested in black pepper. Several people apparently have no problem whatsoever with gold dragons, even though wise, golden dragons who can breathe underwater and take human form are clearly a Chinese fantasy trope. Hyper historical accuracy is not the point; the point is clear context.

I also don't know WHY the OP wanted to remove Eastern elements. Maybe they are interested in British mythology. Maybe they think samurai are jarring. Maybe they like to draw a clear line between Western genre fantasy and fantasy-based anime.

I just don't know.

 

[ProfessorPain]

Maybe it's clear to you that they weren't interested in black pepper. Several people apparently have no problem whatsoever with gold dragons, even though wise, golden dragons who can breathe underwater and take human form are clearly a Chinese fantasy trope. Hyper historical accuracy is not the point; the point is clear context.

I also don't know WHY the OP wanted to remove Eastern elements. Maybe they are interested in British mythology. Maybe they think samurai are jarring. Maybe they like to draw a clear line between Western genre fantasy and fantasy-based anime.

I just don't know.

I think you are feigning ignorance of his intent in order to pontificate, and to deride the OP. I don't mean this as an insult, you are clearly very intelligent, but I don't think that is the level of depth the OP had in mind. And it seems like many of the posts along this line of thinking have veered into insult.

On the gold dragon, I don't think he would have a problem with that. Maybe an eastern style dragon, but most people associate the gold dragon with western myth.

 

[pawsplay]

I think you are feigning ignorance of his intent in order to pontificate, and to deride the OP.

How about we assume good faith? I would love to provide the OP with whatever input is wanted. The problem is that "Eastern flavor" is not so clear-cut. I sense I may have made my point too pointedly at the beginning of the thread. Perhaps I could have picked fewer, and gentler, examples. But the point still stands. I don't know what the OP is asking for, really, and I think a lot of the advice that could be offered based on the OP would be really misaimed until that is clarified.

If the OP is simply looking for, "Yup, that's pretty Asian," and they are concerned only with what they would notice anyway, why would they need other people to point at the samurai are, indeed, Japanese?

The OP states there are no Eastern cultures whatsoever. I can't begin to fathom what that means. Does that imply there are Western cultures? Is there an England but no India? Did a giant cataclysm slice the world in half? That doesn't seem logical. It appears the OP is saying there are no analogs to Eastern cultures in this world. Since in our real world, Western cultures had contact and interchange with Eastern cultures, that really brings into question what exactly IS in the campaign world.