Elminster vs. Mordenkainen

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I don't play Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms so I have no allegiances but, in the back of the Epic Level Handbook, the two wizards' levels are listed as follows:

Elminster: 24th level Wizard / 5th level Archmage / 1st level Fighter / 2 level Rogue / 3rd level Cleric. A total 35 character levels! Or, if you just count the arcane classes (Wizard and Archmage), a 29th level arcane spellcaster!

Mordenkainen: 27th level Wizard.

Now, I was just wondering, as the Grand Daddy of D&D wizards (whose spells grace our PHB), shouldn't Mordenkainen be more powerful than Elminster?

Perhaps you're saying it's irrelevant if Mordenkainen is the "Grand Daddy of D&D wizards", it all depends on how long Elminster and Mordenkainen have been "adventuring" for.

Well . . . in the Greyhawk book, "The Adventure Begins", it says that Mordenkainen was of "low level" around about circa 560 C.Y. as evidenced by his stats in the module "WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure". Now, I don't own this module so I can't tell you exactly what level he is in there but, if he was "low" level then and 27th level now in the current Greyhawk timeline of 592 C.Y., that means it took him 32 years to get from low level to epic level. Wow! What slow progression! D&D characters can go from 1st level to 20th level in less than a game year but it took Mordy 20+ years! I can only assume he was doing a lot of spell research during this time and, thus, we have his famous spells in the PHB.

As for Elminster, I don't know much about his adventuring history so I can't tell you. If someone could please enlighten me on how many years Elminster has been adventuring for then it would be greatly appreciated.

Nevertheless, at the moment I can only say: "Mordy, you'd be creamed by Elminster!"

As a side note, 3E D&D has 3 other "official" campaign settings: Dragonlance, Kalamar, and Eberron.

Could someone please tell me who the most powerful wizard is in these campaign settings and what his/her level is. But, more importantly, can he/she kick Mordenkainen's and Elminster's butt?

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I think Raistlin Majere is the Pimp Wizard of Dragonlance. Can't tell you who's the pimpest, though.

IIRC, Elminster is old, waaaay old, centuries old. He did the nasty with a goddess, and he's the chosen of the Goddess of Magic.

 

[dead]

I think Raistlin Majere is the Pimp Wizard of Dragonlance.

Raistlin should, by rights, be very powerful -- he killed the god Takhisis in an alternate timeline! What level was he when he achieved this great feat?

IIRC, Elminster is old, waaaay old, centuries old. He did the nasty with a goddess, and he's the chosen of the Goddess of Magic.

Thanks. This would explain why Elminster is a lot more powerful than Mordenkainen's paultry 27th level.

 

[Quasqueton]

The main thing to keep in mind with these two wizards:

Mordenkainen was/is a real PC in a real campaign. You can look at Mordenkainen as a "real character" in the World of Greyhawk. Mord got his 27 levels by actual in-game adventuring.

Elminster was/is a toy of a DM and author. Elminster was never a "real character". El got his levels by DM fiat, and authors exapanded on that.

And I don't mean this as any kind of insult to Elminster or FR players.

Quasqueton

 

[dreaded_beast]

In my opinion, it is a result of being in 2 different campaigns:

World of Greyhawk: Standard Generic Fantasy

Forgotten Realms: High Magic Fantasy

 

[Alzrius]

Mordenkainen is, from what I can tell, less than a century old. Elminster, on the other hand, is over a thousand years old. "Age and experience," as they say.

 

[Ssyleia]

I tend to agree with dreaded_beast - FR is a very high powered setting, while Greyhawk is rather low powered in comparison. In Greyhawk, a 10th level character is a reknowned hero, in FR a 10th level character may well be second-in-command of a major city's constabulary.

Therefore Elminster ought to be more powerful. However "levels" IMHO is not the only indication of power. While Elminster might have more levels and hence a better combat ability, Mordenkainen probably commands tenfold as much political influence as Elminster. Also, Mordenkainen has all the power he need to combat his (comparably weaker) enemies, while a score of epic level FR archvillains (Manshoon, Shoon VII, the Malaugrym to name a few) make Elminster's life a lot harder than Mordenkainen's life.

 

[Alzrius]

As a side note, 3E D&D has 3 other "official" campaign settings: Dragonlance, Kalamar, and Eberron.

A very loaded statement. Kingdoms of Kalamar has the Dungeons & Dragons logo on it, but has never actually been published by Wizards of the Coast; Kenzer Co. has rented it out as some part of a deal...from what I heard, it was some sort or restitution on WotC's part for something they did.

Likewise, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting was published by Wizards of the Coast, however, it was written entirely by staff of Sovereign Press, and all subsequent Dragonlance products have been published by Sovereign Press. This is because Sovereign Press pitched the idea to Wizards of the Coast about them (Sovereign) resurrecting the DL line. WotC agreed, with the stipulation that they (WotC) would publish the main setting book. I personally find this to be a rather sleazy business tactic, because the main setting book is always a product line's best selling product, and by being the publisher, WotC will reap virtually all of the profits on it's sales - like a lion, it let someone else do the work, and it taking the rewards.

WotC adopted this tactic after White Wolf optioned Ravenloft, and saw that it was a hit. Since this new policy of their now means that third-party companies will have to, financially, start out at a loss when publishing a discontinued campaign, this is now the primary reason why more interest in d20 companies publishing old campaign worlds has dropped off.

 

[dead]

WotC agreed, with the stipulation that they (WotC) would publish the main setting book. I personally find this to be a rather sleazy business tactic, because the main setting book is always a product line's best selling product, and by being the publisher, WotC will reap virtually all of the profits on it's sales - like a lion, it let someone else do the work, and it taking the rewards.

Thank you for this information, Alzrius. I always wondered what was stopping a 3rd party publishing the great Planescape setting. Perhaps this is part of the reason.

 

[Caspian Moon Prince]

I would like to add that Elminister was an NPC of Ed Greenwood. He journeyed with the Knights of Myth Drannor, so he did actually gain levels and adventure. The Elminister from FRCS may be different from Ed's actual Elminister(since I've heard numerous things in Ed's own Forgotten Realms is different), so the published Elminister may be more powerful.