ELs and CRs for large groups

[Thakkar Rogsnar]

I need some help with ELs and CRs for a large group of players. Our Sunday gaming group has grown quite large. The DMG charts on Encounter Level is very nice and easy to deviate from for a couple of extra players. (The table is set up for four players.) Our current group averages about 15 players and one DM. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle ELs for a group this large. I have looked at the encounter level generator on the Creature Collection page but I need to know the nuts and bolts of how it generates the numbers. I do not have a computer handy for random encounters while playing so any suggestions anyone may have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! (And yes, I know this group is too large!)

 

[dcollins]

Mathematically, the general rule is that doubling the number creatures adds +2 to their measurement on the EL scale (see DMG p. 101, under "Matched Pair").

By this measurement, your group would theoretically be properly challenged by encounters set at an EL of their average level +4 (4 PCs times two doublings ~ 16).

Obviously, you'll need to gauge this by actual play, since the rules weren't playtested for this situation (and some criticize how they work even under the base situation).

 

[AuraSeer]

dcollins is technically right about increasing the effective party level, but IMO that doesn't work well for groups bigger than about 8. The PCs will often be much lower in level than their opposition, so you must be careful not to present insurmountable challenges

For instance, if you have 15 PCs of level 2, it would be theoretically balanced to send them against a CR 6 Osyluth. However, the monster has DR 10/+1, and SR 22. Unless your 2nd-level characters all have magic weapons, they may have a lot of trouble damaging the monster.

In any case you should be prepared for a lot of PC deaths, because hp and abilities are so diluted. If your melee line were a single Ftr6, he'd probably have at least 30 hit points; if a bunch of orcs do 25 total melee damage before dying, the fighter can be healed. But if instead there's a Ftr2, Pal2, and Rgr2, none of them is likely to have more than 20 hp. The same bunch of orcs is liable to kill at least one of them.

 

[dcollins]

AuraSeer, that's actually a very good point. If a standard challenging encounter is meant to expend 20% of a party's resources (DMG p. 101). then for 4 PCs, one or more are wounded and require healing. For 15 PCs, then there's some likelihood that ~3 will be killed in any given encounter.

 

[EOL]

In general I would increase the number of monsters to get the EL to the point it should be rather than using a single monster of great power. The problem, as was pointed out, is that a single high CR monster may be basically completely invulnarable to a parties attack and may similiarly kill a character every time they hit. So I would go for monsters with a CR at or near the parties average level, but then increase their numbers by the same factor as the parties. So for example if the average level is 2 then an Ogre CR 2 should be a challange for 4 2nd level characters if you have 16 characters then perhaps you should have 4 ogres. Which would be EL 6, but much easier for the party then the example Osyluth...

 

[Pax]

Break the party into three 5-member "squads" and design encoutners for each squad -- then pile them all on at once. That way, mostof your "increased challenge" comes from NUMBERS of foes, not the sheer, individual power of a single foe.

IOW, if 3 of a given creature woudl be a fair match for 5 of your party members, then, 9 of them is possibly a fair match for all fifteen PC's.

Another thought is -- BREAK THE GROUP UP; run multiple games or something. 15-player groups ... ugh ...

 

[kreynolds]

Our current group averages about 15 players and one DM.

Damn! It's a frickin' D&D smorgasbord!! The cost of feeding a group like that must be high enough to make a zookeeper balk.

 

[Leopold]

give everything levels of monk and rogue...nothing better than improved unarmed strike and backstabing!!

 

[Thakkar Rogsnar]

Kreynolds, you hit it on the head I certainly can't feed all of those horses, and god do they eat! Everone has had some really good feedback here and I really appreciate it. I think I will try the dividing the group by 3, setting the encounter levels according to that 1/3 of the group then miltiplying the number of monsters by 3 to arrive at a hopefully appropriate number of lower CR creatures for them to fight. Any high level monsters and I am afraid I would be guilty of the "group slaughter" that many peeps hate (including me!). I don't mind killing off a player or two now and then but I need to "keep the ball rolling" as they say. Thanks!

 

[the Jester]

Kreynolds, you hit it on the head I certainly can't feed all of those horses, and god do they eat! Everone has had some really good feedback here and I really appreciate it. I think I will try the dividing the group by 3, setting the encounter levels according to that 1/3 of the group then miltiplying the number of monsters by 3 to arrive at a hopefully appropriate number of lower CR creatures for them to fight. Any high level monsters and I am afraid I would be guilty of the "group slaughter" that many peeps hate (including me!). I don't mind killing off a player or two now and then but I need to "keep the ball rolling" as they say. Thanks!

Having run groups of this size on several occasions I can say this is the way to do it. However, don't be aftraid to use the higher-level encounters once in a while. PCs are amazingly resourceful, and often have enough hp to survive a single hit by a nasty enemy several CRs above their level. If a group this size uses their wits they should be able to handle it once in a while as long as you're careful not to put out things that can instantly slay them all (f'rinstance, something that can cast cloudkill at our 3rd-level hypothetical party).