Elven re-roll and the demigod capstone power

[Nifft]

That runs counter to "This way, you will never run out of encounter powers." If you ever have no encounter powers, you are out of them. Thus, you regain them instantaneously. 'Course, Elven Accuracy still doesn't work infinitely, since you have to use the second roll regardless.

No, because "will never run out" isn't the same as "will always have access to".

You never run out if you get one back every turn. There may be actions you spend without access, but you will get another use of an Encounter power.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Zurai]

No, because "will never run out" isn't the same as "will always have access to".

You never run out if you get one back every turn. There may be actions you spend without access, but you will get another use of an Encounter power.

Cheers, -- N

Going by that definition, you never run out anyway. It's clearly not the intent of the ability.

 

[Nifft]

Going by that definition, you never run out anyway. It's clearly not the intent of the ability.

"Clearly"? Is that a joke? You think the clear intent is that you get to use one Encounter ability an infinite number of times within a single action?

You seriously think that's clearer than being able to use an Encounter ability every round?

-- N

 

[Zurai]

"You think the clear intent is that you get to use one Encounter ability an infinite number of times within a single action?

Please read post #30 in this thread, since you clearly didn't read it the first time. I'll give you a hint: you quoted it in post #31.

 

[ravenight]

"Clearly"? Is that a joke? You think the clear intent is that you get to use one Encounter ability an infinite number of times within a single action?

You seriously think that's clearer than being able to use an Encounter ability every round?

I think the difference is that one of them is a house rule and the other is simply an explanation of the RAW. Yes, that explanation can lead to some ridiculous stuff if there are powers that do certain things, but 30th level is supposed to lead to ridiculous stuff. The only way there could be an infinite loop is if there was a "no action" encounter power that fired under certain conditions and those conditions couldn't be changed by a random outcome of the completion of the power. That's because anything that is a free action is restricted to being used a reasonable number of times per round.

In the case of Elven Accuracy, it is clear that it has not completed its execution until you have accepted the second roll as the roll, thus you do not get it back until there is no longer a roll to reroll.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

That runs counter to "This way, you will never run out of encounter powers." If you ever have no encounter powers, you are out of them. Thus, you regain them instantaneously. 'Course, Elven Accuracy still doesn't work infinitely, since you have to use the second roll regardless.

You normally have to use the first roll regardless. Elven Accuracy breaks that rule (as is the point of that power) giving you the opportunity to reroll ANY attack roll rather than being stuck with what you roll. The second attack roll for Elven Accuracy is still an attack roll, therefore it can be rerolled with an ability like Elven Accuracy. (Ignoring the fact that we're talking about using the same power twice, for a sake of argument.)

The idea that since the wording is "You take the result of the second roll" you have to take roll #2 even if there's a third or forth roll isn't a good solution IMO, because outside of infinite loop exploits like this, I honestly think that if a player has multiple reroll abilties and they want (or need) to burn them all on a single attack, then they should have that option. It only becomes a problem when you wheedle your way into infinite rerolls, and that's not the fault of the ability but a fault of the exploit.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I think the difference is that one of them is a house rule and the other is simply an explanation of the RAW. Yes, that explanation can lead to some ridiculous stuff if there are powers that do certain things, but 30th level is supposed to lead to ridiculous stuff. The only way there could be an infinite loop is if there was a "no action" encounter power that fired under certain conditions and those conditions couldn't be changed by a random outcome of the completion of the power. That's because anything that is a free action is restricted to being used a reasonable number of times per round.

In the case of Elven Accuracy, it is clear that it has not completed its execution until you have accepted the second roll as the roll, thus you do not get it back until there is no longer a roll to reroll.

Well according to the RAW, the DM can set what is a reasonable # of free actions that can be performed in a single round. Why does everyone assume that if a DM decides to limit this it is some sort of house rule rather then a clearly written guideline to prevent ridiculous scenarios from gettign out of hand? If you expect them to come up with clearly written rules for every single permutation of the content, then you'd end up with the U.S. Tax code rather than a game that require you to use some sense every once and awhile.

 

[Nifft]

Please read post #30 in this thread, since you clearly didn't read it the first time. I'll give you a hint: you quoted it in post #31.

You keep using that word "clearly". I don't think it means what I think you think it means.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

I think the difference is that one of them is a house rule and the other is simply an explanation of the RAW. Yes, that explanation can lead to some ridiculous stuff if there are powers that do certain things, but 30th level is supposed to lead to ridiculous stuff.

It's an interpretation, not an explanation. The Demigod ability doesn't say precisely when it gives you a free Encounter power refresh, but it strongly implies you have the opportunity to use one Encounter power each round.

In the case of Elven Accuracy, it is clear that it has not completed its execution until you have accepted the second roll as the roll, thus you do not get it back until there is no longer a roll to reroll.

Well, as I said earlier, a strict rules lawyer DM could say that Elven Accuracy states: "Use the second roll, even if it's lower." Thus, even if you somehow get a thousand rerolls, if you used Elven Accuracy to get them you will use the second roll.

Cheers, -- N

 

[evilbob]

Well, as I said earlier, a strict rules lawyer DM could say that Elven Accuracy states: "Use the second roll, even if it's lower." Thus, even if you somehow get a thousand rerolls, if you used Elven Accuracy to get them you will use the second roll.

I disagree with your interpretation. I think "second roll" is relative to the situation, not a total overall descriptor. I don't believe that this power was written to negate that specific abuse. Therefore, the "second roll" is being compared to your "first roll," which is always the roll you made before this one and wish to change, thus triggering your encounter power.

For example:

1st roll: 9
use encounter power
2nd roll (relative to the 9): 8

use encounter power
2nd roll (relative to the 8): 15

use encounter power
2nd roll (relative to the 15): 11

etc.