Elves And Levels

[Voadam]

An elven fighter who has lived through a hundred years of duels, battles, and wars is going to be exceptionally wise and have very a commanding presence. No human fighter would stand a chance.

[Yoda voice on] "Wars do not make you wise, no." [Yoda voice off]

 

[the Jester]

Interesting discussion!

Campaign idea: a world where most older elves are Epic-level.

I like it.

 

[Forrester]

Re: Re: Elves And Levels

The humans are savages that the elves use as slave labor (not literal slaves; more like the absolute lowest caste with almost zero upward mobility).

-z

Nothing savage about it . . .

 

[Gez]

The problem if we go with age=level, is that elves aren't the only long-lived creatures.

A great wyrm dragon has lived for more than a millenia (IIRC). That's what, about twice as the average elf. Should we always slap 20-30 class levels to great wyrms ?

Now, suppose you use the default cosmology. In the Nine Hells of Baator, you will find the 8 Generals and the Council of Nine, and most of these 17 überfiends are there since before history... Should they have about 1552001454 levels to reflect their thousands of eons of lording, feuding, plotting, battling, and surviving the harshest environments and the foulest enemies ?

 

[Ace]

Greetings!

Elves And Levels

It seems to me that elves, with their incredibly long life spans, should often reach much higher class levels than the non-humans in the campaign, because if a human can reach 20th level in ten, twenty, or thirty years, how high would elven adventurers be after traveling and fighting for four hundred years?

There seems to be resitance to this by some, and yet logically, it would make sense that elves would be exceedingly powerful compared to other races.

What do you think?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My elves are very powerfull

There are no NPC classes other than expert and the average level is about 10th

Adventurer types tend to run about 15th or more -- usually alternating Bard or Sorcerer with something else in a ratio of 2-1

Humans by comparison are typically 3rd level IMC

Good thing there aren't many elves eh

 

[I'm A Banana]

The notion that a human spends 1 year learning the sword and an elf spends 100 is kind of absurd.

If elves were so incompetent and so slow, they would have been wiped out centuries ago by wild animals and nature, let alone orc hordes, dragon attacks, etc.

How is this any more absurd than the idea that age gives you magic imagi-XP? (Yay! I'm 70 years old! I can cast FIREBALL!)

They're not nessecarily incompetent. Have you ever imagined an elf swinging a sword the same way as a human has? To my mind, the elf would put the amount of effort and dedication into learning swordplay that a human may put into perfecting a lifetime of various skills. To them, it is a pinnacle of art, and to be waving around a blade like a human is distasteful and savage.

It takes time to turn swordsmanship into art. And elves turn EVERYTHING they do into an art. They're also rather unfocused in it -- those 100 years could be off-and-on swording while they're composing poetry, crying for months after a funeral, or spending days fletching a single arrow.

Elves are perfectionists. It takes TIME to make things look and feel that completely impressive. Anything less, to an elf, is hasty and sloppy.

They survive not because they're strong or fast, but because they're reclusive and secretive. They live alone in forests with nothing but elves and squirrels, consume only growing things, and generally stay away from danger and hardship and disease (since they don't last long in those situations, and there's no time to develop their skills). The womb of the elves was in peaceful forests that never knew the touch of axe or the blood of an orc. In addition, they have powerful friends -- fey, centaurs, dryads, nymphs. There's a lot of mighty creatures that like the elves. Powerful friends means that they can afford the time.

Also, there's nothing saying the first elves weren't born epic level and put in place all the bounds that guarded the budding race until it had enough powerful adventurers itself to take care of itself.

There is no reason to assume that elves HAVE to be more powerful than anything else.
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Also, about the demographics/Time/XP issue...the rules assume that time does not give you XP. The rules DO assume that adventurers are common, and since adventurers all retire at different points, there are going to be adventurers that are NPC's that are of high level. These aren't commoners. These are people who raided dungeons back in the day, but lost a leg, so don't do much anymore (for instance), or decided just to make magic items for a while.

Any rule that gives people XP as they age is a house rule. And one that has no real place IMC (Happy birthday! You get a bonus feat!). Like Gez said, just because a fiend is a million years old doesn't mean it gets half a million levels of something because of y'know, bein' old and stuff.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

I had an idea for a world with a dominant culture like this - the elves did not have the "flighty" CG mentality, but instead a more organized, orderly (Lawful) mindset. Their superior skill at arms and magic allowed them to conquer large swathes of territory and set up an empire and a bureaucracy worthy of anicent China.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

Quit stealing my WotC setting search submission...

 

[Zappo]

A great wyrm dragon has lived for more than a millenia (IIRC). That's what, about twice as the average elf. Should we always slap 20-30 class levels to great wyrms ?

No, because there are basically no challenges that would give XP to a great wyrm, because of its massive ECL. Even in a thousand years, it's unlikely that anyone meets more than a few 18+ CR challenges unless he's a PC and routinely goes around doing epic stuff.

Same thing with the Baator generals and lords, except that they typically have a more active life than a dragon and they are even older to boot, so I would probably give them, say, 10 levels or so. After that, they would probably need CR 25+ challenges to even gain XP, let alone gain enough of them to get another level.

 

[Gez]

Then the same logic may be used for elves and other long-lived races. What's the CR of taking 20 years to craft a bow ? I could see a "Boredom Rating", but a Challenge Rating, no way.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, because there are basically no challenges that would give XP to a great wyrm, because of its massive ECL. Even in a thousand years, it's unlikely that anyone meets more than a few 18+ CR challenges unless he's a PC and routinely goes around doing epic stuff.

Same thing with the Baator generals and lords, except that they typically have a more active life than a dragon and they are even older to boot, so I would probably give them, say, 10 levels or so. After that, they would probably need CR 25+ challenges to even gain XP, let alone gain enough of them to get another level.

I think this doesn't make a whole lot of sense...Baatezu and Dragons are continually fighting things that are EXTREMELY difficult. Adventurers, for one, and the more they kill the harder the groups get.

A general of hell probably fights mighty mighty abyssal creatures on a regular, daily basis. After all, there's that whole Blood War thing. And even if the Blood War doesn't exist in your campaign, they're fighting mighty celestials and other planar powers on a semi-regular basis.

Dragons fight adventurers, and also probably fight the other powerful monsters of the region. After all, there's a WAY they gather all that treasure...it doesn't just drip from their wings, they've gotta get it the same way PC's do -- beating up big bad evil things in smelly crypts and taking their gold.

The rules assume that adventuring groups are fairly common, at least, so people going around 'doing epic stuff' probably happens a couple of times in the largest and most populous areas, at least.

By the implied setting, it would then seem that dragons and fiends gain a LOT of levels the same way PC's would...

...unless you're stipulating that working on a farm for a year is a bigger challenge than fighting celestials or other fiends or bands of would-be heroes?