Elves, why so long to mature?
- Thread starter Darthjaye
- Start date
Dark Jezter
First Post
Angcuru said:Why so long to mature? No good reason that I've seen printed in any game books. Just like them having the sudden urge to abandon their families and go to some mysterious happy place as soon as they hit 700 or so. The whole concept is there just to add a semblance of balance to elves, to put them somewhat on par with humans. This is just a really dumb idea. They're immortal creatures, so just leave it at that.![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
Elves aren't immortal. They grow old and die just like other races do. Reaching old age and "going west" instead of dying is a relic of previous editions of D&D that no longer applies.
The_Universe
First Post
Ah. Good point. You win.Thaniel said:
As for the dragon thing...well, as I once told a player in my campaign with the exact same question, "It's magic. Deal with it."
Snapdragyn
Explorer
Eh... or not (classified as different species, that is). While you often see dogs classified as Canis familiaris, they're also often listed as Canis lupus familiaris (i.e. merely a domesticated subspecies of grey wolf). In fact, the Smithsonian's "Mammal Species of the World" only mentions the domestic dog in comments under the Canis lupus entry (see http://www.nmnh.si.edu/msw/).
Not that I'm a great proponent of the biological species concept, mind you, but just for the sake of representing an alternate view.
Back to the elves -- I could see fast maturation & extended adulthood being balanced by a very low fecundity (perhaps something like the very long oestral cycle mentioned by another poster). I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a maturation rate which matches their longevity, however; it seems quite odd to us, but as others have said, we aren't elves so why shouldn't it seem odd.
WaterRabbit
Explorer
The simple answer is they are allowed to. Look at the evolution of childhood. Prior to the industrial revolution, children started working at age 5 (give or take) and were considered to be adults by 12-14. After the industrial revolution, these same children started working in factories for long hours and low pay. (Of course, children of the wealthy have always had the opportunity for an extended childhood.)
At the turn of the twentieth century, child labor laws started to have their effect. This led to idle unsupervised urban children. They started running around as street gangs and causing all sorts of problems – thus mandatory schooling. Mandatory schooling (necessary for a modern society) has extended childhood until today (at least in the US) where age 25 (more or less) marks the final entry into adulthood.
It is along these lines that most elven societies are portrayed. Elven children don’t have to assume the responsibilities of adulthood until they are in their early 100’s because they have that luxury.
I have a slightly different take on elven society:
Premise 1: You have humanoids that live to 552 years on average and can live up to 750 years.
Premise 2: As a person gets older, he resents more and more restrictions placed upon him by other people.
Premise 3: Wizards get more powerful with age and thus can get away with ignoring such restrictions.
Premise 4: Elves are natural wizards. (IMHO, elves should get a -2 STR, +2 INT, +2 CHA)
Given these premises, it is much more likely that elven societies have few, if any laws. Societal alignment will tend towards chaotic neutral. Since there are no laws to speak of, interactions between elves resemble negotiations. There is no absolute right or wrong since everything is negotiable. Because of this and the fact that you don’t want to insult a powerful wizard, the language would have many subtleties and nuance. It would also have many forms of address and be very circumspect.
There would be no single leader of any elven community. Instead, the de facto ruler would be either the most powerful elf or the leader of the most powerful alliance. An elven community would not necessarily unite behind any given cause unless all members are equally threatened. An outsider trying to get aid from a particular community would probably have to negotiate with each and everyone one of them for aid. That outsider would also have to be careful not to inadvertently insult anyone of them.
It would likely take a long period of time to learn all of the nuance of elven language and culture before one could operate within it with any degree of proficiency. Customs, histories, manners, and alliances (both current and past) would all have to be learned perfectly. Mispronunciation of a person’s name or associating them with the wrong family or alliance could prove disastrous.
While young elves are physically mature by about age 15, they still have much to learn before they are taken seriously by their elders – the same problem 19-24 year-olds face in our society. This is why younger elves are more likely to leave home to seek adventure. Outside of the stifling culture of their elders they have more freedom to make mistakes without permanently staining their reputation.
Because of their long lifespans, elves tend to avoid personal risk. They employ other races to do their fighting for them. Summoned creatures and constructs, both mechanical and biological, form the bulk of their personal defenses. They would not be adverse to slavery to solve certain problems. They would also have not qualms about using geas and domination type spells to compel others to act on their behalf.
Finally, I tend to view elves as a 1st world society with everyone else as a 2nd or 3rd world society (at least from the elven point of view). They use magic instead of technology. One of the big advantages of technology is labor saving devices. These devices provide individuals more time to pursue activities unrelated to survival. The same would be true of an elven society but to a much higher degree. More free time and less worries about survival also leads to longer childhood.
At the turn of the twentieth century, child labor laws started to have their effect. This led to idle unsupervised urban children. They started running around as street gangs and causing all sorts of problems – thus mandatory schooling. Mandatory schooling (necessary for a modern society) has extended childhood until today (at least in the US) where age 25 (more or less) marks the final entry into adulthood.
It is along these lines that most elven societies are portrayed. Elven children don’t have to assume the responsibilities of adulthood until they are in their early 100’s because they have that luxury.
I have a slightly different take on elven society:
Premise 1: You have humanoids that live to 552 years on average and can live up to 750 years.
Premise 2: As a person gets older, he resents more and more restrictions placed upon him by other people.
Premise 3: Wizards get more powerful with age and thus can get away with ignoring such restrictions.
Premise 4: Elves are natural wizards. (IMHO, elves should get a -2 STR, +2 INT, +2 CHA)
Given these premises, it is much more likely that elven societies have few, if any laws. Societal alignment will tend towards chaotic neutral. Since there are no laws to speak of, interactions between elves resemble negotiations. There is no absolute right or wrong since everything is negotiable. Because of this and the fact that you don’t want to insult a powerful wizard, the language would have many subtleties and nuance. It would also have many forms of address and be very circumspect.
There would be no single leader of any elven community. Instead, the de facto ruler would be either the most powerful elf or the leader of the most powerful alliance. An elven community would not necessarily unite behind any given cause unless all members are equally threatened. An outsider trying to get aid from a particular community would probably have to negotiate with each and everyone one of them for aid. That outsider would also have to be careful not to inadvertently insult anyone of them.
It would likely take a long period of time to learn all of the nuance of elven language and culture before one could operate within it with any degree of proficiency. Customs, histories, manners, and alliances (both current and past) would all have to be learned perfectly. Mispronunciation of a person’s name or associating them with the wrong family or alliance could prove disastrous.
While young elves are physically mature by about age 15, they still have much to learn before they are taken seriously by their elders – the same problem 19-24 year-olds face in our society. This is why younger elves are more likely to leave home to seek adventure. Outside of the stifling culture of their elders they have more freedom to make mistakes without permanently staining their reputation.
Because of their long lifespans, elves tend to avoid personal risk. They employ other races to do their fighting for them. Summoned creatures and constructs, both mechanical and biological, form the bulk of their personal defenses. They would not be adverse to slavery to solve certain problems. They would also have not qualms about using geas and domination type spells to compel others to act on their behalf.
Finally, I tend to view elves as a 1st world society with everyone else as a 2nd or 3rd world society (at least from the elven point of view). They use magic instead of technology. One of the big advantages of technology is labor saving devices. These devices provide individuals more time to pursue activities unrelated to survival. The same would be true of an elven society but to a much higher degree. More free time and less worries about survival also leads to longer childhood.
Angcuru said:
However:
Elves are not "beautiful people" - they don't get bonuses to Charisma. If you don't like to link Charisma and beauty, consider hanging around with a person just as annoying as your average human for centuries. Beautiful or not, you'll want to get away occasionally.
Elves are not provided with everything they'll ever need. Tolkien may have Elves living in utopias, but the core rulebooks don't. Elves have the same sort of economy as everyone else. So, on occasion there'll be cause to go out there and get their hands dirty, too.
More importantly, when you live for multiple centuries, outright boredom becomes an issue. Elves don't have reality TV to sit in front of like we do. Once they get bored of the same old trees day after day, they're going to get antsy. Decades-long cases of "cabin fever" would be normal for them, I suspect
Sejs
First Post
Yeah, that never did quite sit right with me either. The way I've run it is that amongst elven society, suicide is an acceptable practice. An older elf becomes too weary to carry on any longer, he gets his affairs in order, throws one last going away party, says goodbye to his loved ones, and watches the sun come up one last time with a glass of something fatal.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
If you can get a chihuahua and a doberman (the same species) to produce fertile offspring, I'll say it's good.
I'm mostly with Thanee on this. Elves learn everything very *emotionally.* They ain't logical people. They gain a deapth and understanding of the world around them by spending *years* contemplating that selfsame fact. To enhance the education process, elves spend much of their time in malleable youth -- they can learn, adapt, and fully understand a concept before 'maturing' to the point in which they're expected to be a functioning member of society.
A human can learn to whittle a chair, no problem. But to an elf, it's nearly *more* important that the chair is a work of independant art filled with emotional and historical significance than it is that you can sit in it. Thus, while it might take a human a year or two to whittle a chair, it'll take an elf 10, because they aren't satisfied with 'just a chair.'
Basically, elves have that weakness because they aren't "+1 Humans." They're different, IMC, but no holistically better. They aren't wise because they're just wiser, they're wise because they understand a concept in a decade what a human gets in a year.
WaterRabbit
Explorer
Kamikaze Midget said:If you can get a chihuahua and a doberman (the same species) to produce fertile offspring, I'll say it's good.
Would a chihuahua with a Golden Retrevier work for you? I ran into this mixture when I lived in Eugene.
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