Elves, why so long to mature?

Kemrain said:
Now, I can't agree with that. If you're gonna reap the benefits of a lifespan many times a human's, you need a gestation perious, infancy, and childhood many times longer as well. If you're gonna look like a 20 year old when I'm a grandparent, the least you can do is get hassled for a decade with a toddler.

- Kemrain the Racial Equalist.

I don't think this is right. If you look at other long lived animals, like parrots or turtles, they don't take that long to mature..even though they live longer than humans.

Humans don't have a 20 year period to grow up due to the fact that they live long....remember that comparatively speaking, humans have only lived long in the last hundred years or so on a regular basis.

Humans take 20 years to grow because we are born incomplete. A woman's hips are only so wide, and humans have huge brains and skull cases. It would be impossible for a woman to give birth to a child with a fully developed brain and nervous system, as the head would be too large. As a result, humans are born with undeveloped nervous systems, which leaves a much longer period of time to mature.

From what I understand, this is one of the big reasons. Other animals like dogs, cats, etc. are born much further along in their developmental period than humans are, and hence grow much quicker. That's my understanding of matters.

Some old Dragonlance supplements dealt with the subject effectively. I believe it was Otherlands that had elves age a little slower, aging at the same rate as humans until about Age 12 or so, then slowing down and hitting adulthood/sexual maturity by age 36. Once they've hit 36, it slows down even more, and they stay effectively adult for a few hundred years.

The novels coincided as well, with both Laurana and Gilthanas being young adults, but far under 110 years old.

Banshee
 

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Umbran said:
However:

Elves are not "beautiful people" - they don't get bonuses to Charisma. If you don't like to link Charisma and beauty, consider hanging around with a person just as annoying as your average human for centuries. Beautiful or not, you'll want to get away occasionally.

Elves are not provided with everything they'll ever need. Tolkien may have Elves living in utopias, but the core rulebooks don't. Elves have the same sort of economy as everyone else. So, on occasion there'll be cause to go out there and get their hands dirty, too.

More importantly, when you live for multiple centuries, outright boredom becomes an issue. Elves don't have reality TV to sit in front of like we do. Once they get bored of the same old trees day after day, they're going to get antsy. Decades-long cases of "cabin fever" would be normal for them, I suspect :)

Beauty isn't related to charisma bonuses in 3E...

The PHB even states that many humans and members of other races find elves hauntingly beautiful..

Not that it really matters...:)

Banshee
 

Banshee16 said:
Beauty isn't related to charisma bonuses in 3E...

The PHB even states that many humans and members of other races find elves hauntingly beautiful..

Not that it really matters...:)

The key word being "many", not "all."

I sure as hell don't find Mialee to be beautiful. In fact, I consider her to be a tad on the freakish-looking side.

God bless Todd Lockwood and his portrayal of elves as alien-looking rather than the "human supermodels with pointy ears" that other fantasy artists usually portray elves as. :p
 

Dark Jezter said:
The key word being "many", not "all."

I sure as hell don't find Mialee to be beautiful. In fact, I consider her to be a tad on the freakish-looking side.

God bless Todd Lockwood and his portrayal of elves as alien-looking rather than the "human supermodels with pointy ears" that other fantasy artists usually portray elves as. :p

I agree with that....they shouldn't be humans with pointy-ears. My favorite portrayal of elves is by Tad Williams. The Sithi were short, slender, but had cat-like eyes, gold skin and white hair. They were graceful and considered beautiful, but completely alien. They were very graceful, but the humans in the story remarked on how their joints seemed "wrong". They were beautiful, but *not human* at the same time.

That doesn't take away from the fact that many see them as beautiful.

But it's no different with humans. Likely you and I, and anyone else on the board would have completely different views as to what consitutes beauty. I disagree with my girlfriend about Angelina Jolie for instance. She doesn't do anything for me, but my girlfriend thinks she's a beautiful woman, and I just don't see it.

Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

The description in the PHB simply tells me that by and large, elves are considered to have a higher average level of beauty to *most* people....not to everyone.

Banshee
 

hong said:
Actually, I don't think Tolkien ever said anything about the rate at which elves mature. They're long-lived (immortal), but how fast they go from infancy to adulthood isn't something addressed in the books IIRC.

It's in his Letters if I recall aright.
 

Banshee16 said:
I don't think this is right. If you look at other long lived animals, like parrots or turtles, they don't take that long to mature..even though they live longer than humans.

A really well kept African Grey parrot might live to be about 100. So will a really well kept human. Certain tortoises live longer than humans, but you'll note that they aren't mammals, and so shouldn't be expected to follow similar patterns.

Humans don't have a 20 year period to grow up due to the fact that they live long....remember that comparatively speaking, humans have only lived long in the last hundred years or so on a regular basis.

Um, be careful there. In times gone past, the average lifespan of a human being was perhaps 30 years, yes. But it isn't like they died of old age at 30. The average was that low largely due to infant mortality - lots of people dying very young kept the average down. There's reasonable evidence that in those times, if someone made it to maturity, they had a reasonable chance to reach codgerhood of 50 or higher, which is far longer than most mammals live, even when well kept.

Humans take 20 years to grow because we are born incomplete.

This is mostly true. You'll note, though, that it doesn't actually take 20 years for the brain and skull to reach full size. That's already happened in the middle teens.

Beauty isn't related to charisma bonuses in 3E...

Oh? Go back and reread the definition of Charisma in the beginning of the PHB (3e or 3.5e, they are the similar). Physical attractiveness is listed in the definition. :)

Mind you, some folk don't like to include it. This is why I said, "If you don't like to link Charisma and beauty..."
 

Umbran said:
Oh? Go back and reread the definition of Charisma in the beginning of the PHB (3e or 3.5e, they are the similar). Physical attractiveness is listed in the definition.

Mind you, some folk don't like to include it. This is why I said, "If you don't like to link Charisma and beauty..."

In FR, orogs (underdark orcs) get +2 to charisma, and they're ugly as sin. :)

I've never been a fan of "high charisma equals physical beauty" mainly because standards of beauty vary by race, culture, and such. Not to mention that even the "beautiful people" aren't always charismatic: A common example being the supermodel who has no personality whatsover. On the other hand, you have people like Winston Churchill who are very charismatic, but aren't gonna win any beauty contests.
 

Oh? Go back and reread the definition of Charisma in the beginning of the PHB (3e or 3.5e, they are the similar). Physical attractiveness is listed in the definition

Sure, he's got a head like a purple slime-dripping squid, he eats people's brains and is completely without remorse... but damn that illithid sure is sexy.
 

A high Charisma can equal physical beauty, but doesn't necessarily have to.

The lists are (IMHO) just examples of what Charisma often represents and not meant that they always have this meaning for every PC/NPC.

Physical attractiveness is surely only a secondary trait of Charisma.

I think for elves the beauty aspect balances with the haughty, arrogant aspect, so they don't get a bonus. :)

Bye
Thanee
 
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