D&D (2024) Elves without racism [+]


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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Thats just ethnic stereotypes:

• This race is slightly smarter.

• This race is slightly dumber.


A distinct species is ENTIRELY UNLIKE the other.
I don't know that I'd say the differences between, say, cats and dogs warrants an "entirely unlike" in all caps.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I don't know that I'd say the differences between, say, cats and dogs warrants an "entirely unlike" in all caps.
Do we need the Players Handbook to list 41 different species of cats?

The options for fantasy species in the Players Handbook need to be substantially, dramatically, and saliently distinct from each other.
 

Thing is, it's true that at this point halflings are just 'lucky smallish humans'.

Because over the years every difference between them and the other species has been whittled away one by one. Every one of these changes individually hasn't prevented them being completely unique and worth including in the PHB, but all combined absolutely has.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Do we need the Players Handbook to list 41 different species of cats?

The options for fantasy species in the Players Handbook need to be substantially, dramatically, and saliently distinct from each other.
I agree that distinctions are needed, but at the same time I don't think that elves and humans need to be "ENTIRELY UNLIKE" in their differences; the differences between cats and dogs, for instance, strikes me as a good level of differentiation.

Of course, I think that level of differentiation can be artfully achieved (for the most part) via representing biological characteristics in comparative terms (i.e. ability score modifiers), but a lot of people don't seem to find that to be acceptable anymore.
 
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Horwath

Legend
I agree that distinctions are needed, but at the same time I don't think that elves and humans need to be "ENTIRELY UNLIKE" in their differences; the differences between cats and dogs, for instance, strikes me as a good level of differentiation.

Of course, I think that level of differentiation can be artfully achieved (for the most part) via representing biological characteristics in comparative terms (i.e. ability score modifiers), but a lot of people don't seem to find that to be acceptable anymore.
personally, I do not care about is the ability difference acceptable by someones self impose standards,

But I do want to have all medium sized humanoids that are playable race/species to have same average ability scores,
or we again go back to half-orc barbarians, gnome wizards and 27 elven subraces that will give you your choice of +2 to certain ability and -2 to choice ability
 

I think this is the crux of the issue.

It's clear that a lot of people view the dnd races as just slightly different humans, in the same way there are different ethnicities irl. Suggesting that one human race is dumber or stronger than another human race is awful, and people rightfully get censored for it.

While a lot of us view the dnd species as completely separate and in many cases unrelated creatures, often barely comparable to humans at all. Saying a centaur is innately stronger than a human makes as much sense as a horse being stronger than a human. They're not just 'humans, but not', they're a completely alien species which also has sapience, but completely different abilities and may view and interact with the world in a different way.

And I honestly don't see any way for these two groups to reconcile their views.
Taking strength as an example I have never seen anyone object to the concept of Powerful Build - and when a STR 10 goliath can lift as much as a STR 20 human I think we can say goliaths are stronger.
 

Agreed, negative modifiers, Stat minimum and maximum, and variability in species based ASI all need to return.
No they don't. Simply tweaking the stats makes for tiny differences. If you want actual significant differences you need things like Darkvision (although that's overused), Powerful Build, Claws, Telepathy, and more. If the entire difference can be concealed behind a string of lucky or unlucky d20 rolls then it isn't a meaningful difference, just tedious book keeping that doesn't actually produce significant differences.

Edit - or no significant differences other than making certain character concepts feel bad - and that's the worst outcome of all.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
No they don't. Simply tweaking the stats makes for tiny differences. If you want actual significant differences you need things like Darkvision (although that's overused), Powerful Build, Claws, Telepathy, and more. If the entire difference can be concealed behind a string of lucky or unlucky d20 rolls then it isn't a meaningful difference, just tedious book keeping that doesn't actually produce significant differences.

Edit - or no significant differences other than making certain character concepts feel bad - and that's the worst outcome of all.
I've seen plenty of players who've found racial ability score modifiers to be very meaningful during character creation.

I haven't seen many elves with powerful build, claws, and telepathy, though. :p
 

Eubani

Legend
I never saw Wild Elves as savage, just living as close and symbiotically as possible with the forests they lived in. I never seen them put forward as "savage"
 

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