Embracing the D&Disms

[MerakSpielman]

I don't like limiting player abilities. Divination and travel spells are part of the cool factor of playing high-level spellcasters. I feel that taking away the powerful utility spells places too much emphasis on the "combat" class of spells.

 

[Desdichado]

i never had a problam with any of the spells in the phb. as you said, only a very small % of the people in the world can use these spells, and the pcs happen to be of the few powerful beings in this world who can cast them. it wouldn't be very interesting to play 'the everyday loozer', would it? we get to be 'the everyday loozer' in real life, so where's the fun in role playing that?

I have a real hard time understanding this attitude. Do D&D players in general have depressing lives? Are D&D players clinically depressed? Why do they always contrast the larger than life PCs with their "loser" real lives? Sure, when I play, I want to do something different than my real life, but not necessarily better, because frankly, my life's pretty good. There are plenty of times my PCs have a harder time that I personally do, especially in games like Call of Cthulhu or somesuch. And to me, there's plenty of fun in playing "the everyday loser", at least if he's in extraordinary circumstances.

 

[Wombat]

It would be interesting to totally embrace D&D.

I think the best way to do so would be to start with the SRD. Remove all the fluff, all the pre-concieved notions of lands, specific deities, groupings, and suchlike. Then rebuild what the world looks like from there.

D&DWorld is terribly dangerous. There are large numbers of top predators (including many creatures that are able to kill just by looking at you or having you come into a generalized proximity) just roaming about, many of whom could eat whole villages for breakfast. There are people running around with the power (magic, both arcane and divine) to change the course of nature, much less individually kill people. Thus there is great potential for random death nearly every day.

On the other hand, there is a crude economy (based only around one metal, with very little in the way of banking) coupled with a nearly 100% literate (barring Barbarians) populace. Consumerism is quite rampant as is a straight cash economy. Magic shops exist in most towns, ergo magic would be seen more as an "Alternate Technology" rather than as an entirely opposing structure.

People who die may come back -- either because they have been Raised or because they have been turned into Undead. In fact, Undeath is pretty darn prevelant, which could lead to some interesting philosophical notions on the part of the populace.

It may not be clear that the gods themselves truly exist, but there is certainly some power other than worldly knowledge that fuels the powers of clerics and druids. It would be easy to posit that the clerics are merely tapping into philosophical propositions rather than specific entities. On the other hand, it is known that there are multiple planes of reality that are home to creatures so vastly powerful that most humanoids entering their domains would be destroyed nearly instantly. There is no lack of certainty on this point -- Alignments exist and they have special habitats.

That being said, communities seem excruciatingly tolerant. It is possible to have a city with many people openly following gods and/or philosophies of wildly divergent Alignment tendencies without bringing the whole system grinding to a halt. But as Chaotic Evil cults often demand blood sacrifices (by way of a single extreme example) whereas Lawful Good cults would decry this, this speaks to a mentality amongst humanoids that your alignment is less important on a daily basis, as we can all live openly together -- alignment wars are to be fought on other Planes. D&DWorld is neutral (but not Neutral) ground.

Along with Alignments, multiple species regularly live and work together -- this reinforces a notion of minimal prejudice and extreme tolerance on the part of the populace. On the other hand, it can be seen that there is not that much difference between the races. Orcs, elves, and humans can interbreed with each other; probably gnomes and halflings could do the same with their equivalently sized kin. Dwarves, on the other hand, are either notably standoffish or so genetically different that crossbreeding is impossible.

The world has much less fear of disease, poison, and even random accidents than our own, due to the rapid availability of curatives, curatives with no harmful side effects, no chance of going wrong, no chance of addiction.

I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to the political set up...

Just some food for thought on the notion of totally embracing the rules.

 

[Desdichado]

Personally, I take the exact opposite approach. If I just accept these things and change my world to account for them, I end up with something quite different than a typical fantasy world. That's not what I want. I play D&D to act out stories like in the fantasy novels and movies that I love. The less the game is like that, the less interested I am in it.

Yeah, that's pretty much my attitude too. My current campaign is d20, but I really hesitate to call it D&D because of all the changes I've made. Of course, most of the changes were either introduced, or at least reprinted in Unearthed Arcana with the exception of some specific races and classes... maybe it's D&D after all...

But yeah, to me, I came into gaming through a love of fantasy stories, so even way back in the day I had little interest in games that didn't let me replicate that experience somewhat. Probably explains why I lost interest in D&D long before 2e even came out.

 

[Mac Callum]

Careful, Quasqueton – this rabbit hole is far deeper than you imagine.

Just a very few spells (and the ability to make magical items) change the fundamental aspects of how society works so completely that it doesn’t take too many high-level spellcasters to make a world completely unrecognizable to most fantasy readers.

In no particular order …

Teleport/ Teleport Without Error/ Teleportation Circle – Christopher Columbus, Marco Polo, Lewis & Clark: all gone. There is no frontier because people can travel anywhere. There would be non-contiguous empires linked by a web of Teleport Circles – Empires that might exist on multiple worlds and planes of existence. Sailing would be a lost science. Long distance roads would be more expensive (and more dangerous) than building a Teleport Circle. This is the single biggest change to 'standard' worlds. In Forgotten Realms a single Teleport Cicle spell from Zzass Tam (and he can probably cast 5/ day) could put thousands of troops in any point of any kingdom in the Prime Material Plane - up to & including downtown Waterdeep or Suzail. Fortresses guarding a mountain pass would be useless, and frankly never even built in the first place. Whole swaths of land would have to be blankets with Dimensional anchors or Private Sanctums to prevent this. Navies would be useless because who cares about the ocean? You don't need it for trade or moving troops. Cities could be miles from any river or seaport but thrive because of this.

Zone of Truth/ Detect Thoughts/ Dominate Person – no lying under oath. Almost perfect justice. Investigator’s and PI’s mostly out of work. A Permanent ZoT would be standard is most Courts of Justice. Spies would be pretty useless since its so easy to just ask them “Spying for anyone?”. Also, private organizations with resources (Wizards’s guild, mafia) will make use of these spells to ensure loyalty.

Collar of Feeblemind – good way to keep a Wizards/ Sorcerer locked up.

Create Undead – even if its evil, many people will still use it as a free source of labor. Simple commands can include things like “dig here” or “row this boat.” Of course, with permanent Teleports – why row a boat? What’s the point of sailing except to get places?

Glasses/ Earmuffs of Comprehend Languages/ Tongues – the wisdom of the ancients will never be lost to lost languages, no matter how old. Same goes for demonic writings from the Abyss.

Polymorph – how many workers transformed into Stone Giants does it take to rebuild the pyramids in a couple weeks? How about the King’s loyal warriors transformed into gryphons or dire wolverines or an ankheg (city wall sapper?) does it take to completely change the calculus of war?

Contact Other Plane/ Commune – what’s the point of building Universities and learning the discipline of science when you can just ask God? Once the Cleric of Oghma knows something he will spread the knowledge far & wide. Any problem is just a Commune spell away from an answer.

Q: Why don’t people know stuff?
A: Books are too expensive.
Q: How do I make them cheaper?
A: Invent a printing press.
Q: How’s that work?
A: Movable type, rolled in ink, makes many copies at once.
Q: Cool, thanks.

Or

Q: Why are people getting sick?
A: The water is dirty?
Q: How do I make it clean?
A: Cast a permanent Purify Food & Drink on the aqueduct.
*Boom* No more water-bourne plagues.
Or

Q: How can we make more grain per acre?
A: Use a row of steel plows instead of one brass one.
Q: Anything else?
A: Enchant a horse’s collar with Bull’s Strength and Bear’s Endurance. Put on Enlarged Dire Horse.
A: Anything else? Etc, etc…

See what I mean? In the Earth’s middle ages the Church was seen as the font of all knowledge, and this largely retarded the economic growth of Europe. In D&D-world the Church really will be the font of all knowledge – and it will be right! Information in books cannot be trusted to be correct. Information directly from God is directly from God. No non-Church university can possibly compete with that source of information.

Control Weather – everywhere is San Diego. 72, sunny and nary a cloud in the sky. You don’t think that tax dollars won’t be sunk into the perfect growing season? And that’s before Plant Growth. Really, the farming efficiencies that just a couple spells make create a hugely excess supply of labor, throwing off the D&D population charts. There should be a lot more Experts of various kinds, as well as the Magewrights from Eberron.

Gate – It doesn’t take many Demons/ Solars walking the streets to really mess with your normal fantasy world. What chance does a hobbit have? Remember, Gate doesn’t have to be cast often – Demons are immortal and be around to trouble you for a very, very long time. They’ll also use all the magic at their disposal to kill any upstart adventurers long before they’re powerful enough to challenge her.

It goes on & on. I’m not saying don’t do it – but your world’s going to be funky.

Oh, and those D&D costs to have a spell cast - those are market prices. For a Wizard, Sorceror or Cleric, it's really 'free' to cast any spell and every spell in their repetoire, every day. Just costs their time. A Sorcerer with Wall of Stone who donates just a week of their spellcasting time to charity could completly rebuild the fortifications of the city, or resurface the King's palace with the most fashionable shade of pink marble.

 

[MerakSpielman]

A lot of these presumptions for a magical society presume that there aren't powerful religions worshipping Chaos, Pestilence, and Ignorance. If 1/2 of the magical community is evil and trying to bring about the end of Order and Progress, then the other 1/2 will be making very slow progress.

 

[kolikeos]

There are plenty of times my PCs have a harder time than I personally do

that is always correct, we get to sit at home, eat when we wish, play dnd when we want to, ect. the pcs get all the nasty stuff of life, fighting, sleeping in the wilderness ect. i do agree with you on that matter, my character's life is always in a way lots worse then mine.

one more thing: do not deny your loozerality

 

[Shallown]

I can see Wombat's point. I think this thread is more about finding a better middle ground.

For those that want the heroic story story that doesn't always fit in D&D. Use another system. D&D can't do it all. It is especially bad at simulating anything from fiction except what is based on itself (even then it fails). ( baring some extensive rewrites. I mean D&D not D20 which is a different horse and is much more flexible than credited usually).

I'm not bashing D&D I love to tell great D&D stories with it. It just is what it is.

Now Mac I just can't bring myself to see the world you see. Why is Oghma giving away knowledge. I have trouble envisioning a God that gives away power and knowledge without a price. Maybe I play my God's more the greek/Roman kind that are petty and human in their traits. I just can't see a God of any pantheon/focus just giving away what makes them a God.

Also with the 20th century veiw of thinsg solving problems is easy but how long has scientific method been around in the common world. Cause an effect is a much more difficult concept to get if you have never seen it before. Modern methodology doesn't apply in my eyes. I know it is second nature to us in the modern era but even today I know people who can't put 2 and 2 together but you illustrate people doing a lottle too easily in a time when that method of thinking was unheard of. Its like a player researching gunpowder in medieval times becuase he knows the formula now.

I know it is all a guess work but there should be something in designing a campaign thattakes into account some of the D&D spells that people have issues in without driving the whole game over the edge.

I think controlling access to the power is the main method either through divine mandate or by rarity of 9th level spell slingers. I mean if we think that ability is so common then the ability to be a CEO of microsoft should be just as easy.

And there again I go a Ramblin'

later

 

[atra2]

Merak, you're right, and Eberron shows this: Lightning Train and Lightning Rails built, but a few of the rail lines are destroyed during the Last War.

You'd have pocket Utopias, pocket Dystopias, and everything inbetween. Great fun as DM to put the PCs through I'd bet.

 

[kolikeos]

Teleport/ Teleport Without Error/ Teleportation Circle – Christopher Columbus, Marco Polo, Lewis & Clark: all gone. There is no frontier because people can travel anywhere. There would be non-contiguous empires linked by a web of Teleport Circles – Empires that might exist on multiple worlds and planes of existence. Sailing would be a lost science. Long distance roads would be more expensive (and more dangerous) than building a Teleport Circle. This is the single biggest change to 'standard' worlds. In Forgotten Realms a single Teleport Cicle spell from Zzass Tam (and he can probably cast 5/ day) could put thousands of troops in any point of any kingdom in the Prime Material Plane - up to & including downtown Waterdeep or Suzail. Fortresses guarding a mountain pass would be useless, and frankly never even built in the first place. Whole swaths of land would have to be blankets with Dimensional anchors or Private Sanctums to prevent this. Navies would be useless because who cares about the ocean? You don't need it for trade or moving troops. Cities could be miles from any river or seaport but thrive because of this.

not everyone can cast teleport you know... its only about 1% (or less) of the worlds population that can use such spells