Empowered Mirror Image

[Li Shenron]

I agree with the letter interpretation of the max.

However I may consider overruling this, because empowering a mirror image seems a nice idea to me, and not gamebreaking.

 

[KarinsDad]

So you are implying that a metamagic that adds 1d6 (sanctify spell maybe) or even doubles the d6 (energy admixture) max out at 10d6 when applied to a fireball? They don't explicitly modify the 10d6 max. I'll stick with the metamagic being applied to the base spell, the base spell has the maximum, the metamagic applies to that maximum.

Energy Admixture does not go over the 10D6 cap of the Fireball. It adds a different type of energy which also has a 10D6 cap.

The problem with EA is that the example in the book is bogus. You would have to use a 7th level spell for EA Fireball and that would mean that you would always be at the 10D6 cap for each energy type. The 6D6 example in the book would never happen.

 

[Borlon]

I am reminded of the discussion of Practiced Spellcaster and... drat, what is that called? The class that changes your caster level by a random amount. Anyway, the order of operations is whatever is most favorable to the player.

In the Mirror Image case, there are three things that are going on: you generate a random number. This number is capped at 8. You multiply by 1.5.

The consensus seems to be that the cap is imposed last. I would say that the cap comes second, and then you multiply. That is more favorable to the player.

Are there other examples of order of operations in the rules, where doing it different ways gives different numbers? Examples that we could generalize to the current case.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The maximum result listed for mirror image is list unlike for any other spell. Most of them will say max +10, or max +5 or whatever. Mirror image has a subtle nuance that once you reach a certain level (21 caster level), you'll always get 8 images. This is unlike, say, ray of enfeeblement where the bonus (the +) is limited.

So, do other spells have maximum values? In other words, is 1d4+1 for magic missile have a maximum value of 5, such that it would limit empower as well? If 1d4+1 does not have a maximum of 5, then what do you get when you maximize it? If it does, then how does empower empower it any more than mirror image? Is the explicit language the overriding fact or does implicit language also apply?

IMO, the maximum listed for mirror image is the maximum normally rolled result (as discussed in the maximize feat) and that empower can go beyond the normally rolled result like it does for any other variable spell.

 

[IndyPendant]

So...wait a minute. I'm having trouble with this one.

Cure Moderate Wounds is capped at 2d8+10. But apparently an empowered CMW cast by an 11th level character heals 3d8+15. In otherwords, the +10 cap is applied *before* the Empower multiplier.

Fireball is capped at 10d6. But an Empowered Fireball cast by an 11th level wizard does 15d6 damage. In other words, the dice cap is applied *before* the Empower modifier.

Mirror Image is capped at 8. But an Empowered Mirror Image cast by an 18th level caster gives (1d4+6)*1.5 images, capped (according to consensus here) at 8. In other words, for these few types of spells only, the cap is applied *after* the Empower modifier.

Do I understand this correctly?

And if so, does this not seem...arbitrarily and needlessly limiting to you? It does to me.

Even if this is in fact RAW, it's immediately getting house-ruled out in my campaigns...: )

 

[Borlon]

There's a bit of a difference. You don't roll 15d6 for the empowered fireball. You roll 10d6 and then multiply by 1.5. And there is no wording that says that fireball is capped at, say, 60 hp damage.

That said, I generally agree with you. The spell description gives you a method for finding a number. Empower spell multiplies that number by 1.5. It should work the same for mirror image as for fireball.

However, being on the opposite side of a rules debate with Hypersmurf or Patryn of Elvenshae... I'm probably wrong.

 

[Goolpsy]

You do not exced the cap by empowering it... its (1d4+6)x1.5 ...
1d4 is just as much a random number as 1d6+6 is... So the biggest advantage you would get is at level 24 where u meet the cap (8)... and it would be (1d4+8)x1.5

You never exced the cap in anyway... you just multiply your random result by 1.5 just as the Feat say.

Just like magic missile is described in the PHB

[Quote: PHB]
For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1.5 times its normal damage (Roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1.5 for each missile.
[/Quote]

According you some of you... mgic missile caps at (+1) so i take it that you play empowered as 1d4 x1.5 + 1 ?
If not.. then you are acting against your own rules.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

So...wait a minute. I'm having trouble with this one.

Cure Moderate Wounds is capped at 2d8+10. But apparently an empowered CMW cast by an 11th level character heals 3d8+15. In otherwords, the +10 cap is applied *before* the Empower multiplier.

Fireball is capped at 10d6. But an Empowered Fireball cast by an 11th level wizard does 15d6 damage. In other words, the dice cap is applied *before* the Empower modifier.

No, the empowered CMW does (2d8+10)*1.5, and the empowered fireball does (10d6)*1.5. But that's kind of beside the point at hand.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Am I doing this right, or is there some reason empower would effect the maximum number?

The reason is that the number of images itself is a variable, numeric effect, and therefore the number of images should be multiplied by 1.5.

To assert otherwise requires the "maximum of 8 images" clause to be viewed as a separate effect of the spell, rather than simply part of the formula for calculating the number of images. This is an understandable point of view (in that I claim I have just understood and explained it), but it does not strike me as the most reasonable reading of the text.

 

[Goolpsy]

Lets make an equation x*1.5 = y
y = the new number
x=The effect the spell normally would do, and as the spell does 1d4 +6..
x is the roll on the d4 +6
hence y isn't changing my max value...
The max value for x = d4 + b (0<b<8)
So b has a max, y doesn't....