EN World GameStore Closing
- Thread starter Morrus
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Roudi
First Post
It makes sense, but it's awfully idyllic and unfeasable.NathanHill said:
Besides, have you ever worked in customer service? I'm sure you've at least some experience, to suggest that particular idea, but if not... well, dealing with a lot of people in a somewhat live environment can be very draining. You will get customers who are very interested in trying your product. You will also get idiots who have no desire at all to try anything you have to offer and simply want to annoy you. You will get customers who have no idea what they are doing, no matter how well you explain it to them. You will get customers whose only purpose is to complain to you about anything they can. Deal with enough of them in a day, and I think you will be regretting your demo model.
Besides, this "live demo" model you propose is already feasible. Just provide a form of contact with your product description and set up an IRC chat room (or some other form of chat). Or, as you mention, arrange a meet with the customer. If you really think that is a superior form of marketing, then don't wait for OBS to implement it for you. You have the resources to do it yourself right now! If you do so, and make it successful, maybe that will convince OBS to incorporate features to encourage that kind of marketing. But they will only do so if someone shows them it can work. So, stop complaining about how OBS doesn't do things your way, and do things your way.
NathanHill
First Post
Bardsandsages said:
Your comments are cool, but I simply have a different perspective on my game design/publishing. (And note the I.) OBS will probably not introduce features that fit with such a minority type of approach to the hobby.
The point is.. the merger is not going to really help me. I'm interested in writing games that are fun to play and playing them with other people. Increasing the presence and distribution of PDFs is not a central issue in that framework. It certainly may not hurt what I am interested in doing, but I don't see it really benefiting what I do.Peace!
Orcus
First Post
Henry, your answer to Christoph is essentially correct.
We didnt grudgingly join DTRPG. We joined with enthusiasm, but we didnt have high hopes of it as a medium for product delivery. As he stated, my view was that it would mostly help those fans who couldnt get the print books. That was just my view of what the business model would address.
Dont think that means I dont love PDFs and havent been waiting for the day when I saw a means to consider pdfs as a viable primary product strategy. We started out with pdfs with Wizards Amulet. And now that OBS is around, I think primary pdf is now a viable product strategy from publishers that previously have been print publishers. Which is a good thing for everyone.
When we joined up with DTRPG I saw a fragmented pdf market from a business standpoint. No clear unified voice. I saw different companies kind of going in different directions. I saw duplication of effort. I saw a fragmented purchaser base. I also saw an accounting headache in dealing with putting the various books on various sites and tracking payments to us and thus to authors etc. I also clearly saw that pdf-only or pdf-primary was not a solid product plan for Necro for various reasons. I think that has now changed.
Lets take a little design detour for a minute so you can understand what i mean. The PDF only publishers have done a great job, but the market has been conceededly limited. You just dont move the same numbers of a pdf as a print product. Now look at the print publishers. Sure, many of them distribute their books as pdfs. But those products were all (well, i cant say all since i havent seen them all, but certainly the vast majority) designed as print products first with pdfs as an added bonus. Most pdf products are just a print product delivered in a different form--pdf.
With OBS, I think there is now a viable delivery mechanism that can exploit the benefits of the pdf medium.
Now OBS has focused the business model, it has unified (not totally
) the customer base. It has solved the accounting headaches for publishers like me, it has increased the potential customer base, it is no longer duplicating effort and going in different directions which seemed to be aimed at addressing certain niches rather than developing as a mainstream means of delivering product. It allows for more focused advertising to grow the customer base. I might be a total geek, but I am absolutely out of my mind excited about this. because I have always seen and loved the potential of PDF products. I just hadnt really seen the market that had the growth potential I wanted to be a part of. Now I do.
What I mean by all this is that I, as a print publisher, am now working on a product that will be PDF first. And by that I dont mean Monte's "release the pdf of the print product a bit ahead of time" strategy (which was genius, by the way). I mean the pdf will be its own product, designed specifically as a pdf. I will eventually produce a print product, but the two will be designed differently. Because you use a pdf differently. Perhaps this is bold, but I intend to product a product that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED not just to be a print product but to be used as a pdf. You dont get that in a print product. And you dont get that in a pdf of a product that is designed for print.
In other words, I see the formation of OBS as allowing print publishers to consider pdf primary products. That is a HUGE step into what I consider to be the future of our game and the way materials will be delivered to us for D&D.
Clark
We didnt grudgingly join DTRPG. We joined with enthusiasm, but we didnt have high hopes of it as a medium for product delivery. As he stated, my view was that it would mostly help those fans who couldnt get the print books. That was just my view of what the business model would address.
Dont think that means I dont love PDFs and havent been waiting for the day when I saw a means to consider pdfs as a viable primary product strategy. We started out with pdfs with Wizards Amulet. And now that OBS is around, I think primary pdf is now a viable product strategy from publishers that previously have been print publishers. Which is a good thing for everyone.
When we joined up with DTRPG I saw a fragmented pdf market from a business standpoint. No clear unified voice. I saw different companies kind of going in different directions. I saw duplication of effort. I saw a fragmented purchaser base. I also saw an accounting headache in dealing with putting the various books on various sites and tracking payments to us and thus to authors etc. I also clearly saw that pdf-only or pdf-primary was not a solid product plan for Necro for various reasons. I think that has now changed.
Lets take a little design detour for a minute so you can understand what i mean. The PDF only publishers have done a great job, but the market has been conceededly limited. You just dont move the same numbers of a pdf as a print product. Now look at the print publishers. Sure, many of them distribute their books as pdfs. But those products were all (well, i cant say all since i havent seen them all, but certainly the vast majority) designed as print products first with pdfs as an added bonus. Most pdf products are just a print product delivered in a different form--pdf.
With OBS, I think there is now a viable delivery mechanism that can exploit the benefits of the pdf medium.
Now OBS has focused the business model, it has unified (not totally
) the customer base. It has solved the accounting headaches for publishers like me, it has increased the potential customer base, it is no longer duplicating effort and going in different directions which seemed to be aimed at addressing certain niches rather than developing as a mainstream means of delivering product. It allows for more focused advertising to grow the customer base. I might be a total geek, but I am absolutely out of my mind excited about this. because I have always seen and loved the potential of PDF products. I just hadnt really seen the market that had the growth potential I wanted to be a part of. Now I do.What I mean by all this is that I, as a print publisher, am now working on a product that will be PDF first. And by that I dont mean Monte's "release the pdf of the print product a bit ahead of time" strategy (which was genius, by the way). I mean the pdf will be its own product, designed specifically as a pdf. I will eventually produce a print product, but the two will be designed differently. Because you use a pdf differently. Perhaps this is bold, but I intend to product a product that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED not just to be a print product but to be used as a pdf. You dont get that in a print product. And you dont get that in a pdf of a product that is designed for print.
In other words, I see the formation of OBS as allowing print publishers to consider pdf primary products. That is a HUGE step into what I consider to be the future of our game and the way materials will be delivered to us for D&D.
Clark
Christoph the Magus
Explorer
Orcus said:
Thanks for replying, Clark. Your explanation makes sense to me. If other print focused publishers share your views it's possible that the PDF market might rival the sales fo print products someday-which I think is a good thing.
Christoph
Treebore
First Post
From the consumer standpoint PDF's still aren't as conveninet or easy to read as print. So until pdf's are as easy on my eyes, and as easy to carry around as a print book, don't expect them to compete with print.
The main reason I buy is to be able to print stuff. So map type products are my main reason to buy, so I can easily print them. Or in the case of Mother of All Treasure Tables, easier to print out the descriptions rather than hand copy or scan and then print.
So for me, if print publishers want to sell more pdf's to me, then you guys need to either give me a serious discount coupon on the pdf when I buy the print, or lower the pdf prices across the board.
The only way to expand the pdf market is to make it so cheap compared to print that computer owners have to try them out. Only a handful of print companies, at least in the RPG business, are doing that.
I've noticed that WOTC hasn't been happy with their sales for their full priced pdf versions of their books. I guess the consumer base isn't as stupid as they hoped, or that they aren't very interested in getting pdf sales to be successful.
If people really want pdf's to take off quit thinking they compete with print at the same, or even close, price points. Most of us are smart enough to know that pdf is way cheaper for you guys to make and sell than a print book. No printing costs, no physical storage issues. Way cheaper. So charge way less than print.
By keeping them so close in price you print guys are forcing the competition. So if you don't want to have them compete, stop it. If you don't want to have pdf's undercut your print, then offer a discount on the pdf price to those who bought the print. That way you get the print sale, plus a little more off of the pdf. Otherwise you are keeping your smarter consumers at the "either/or" level of buying. Its up to you print guys to change that dynamic.
The main reason I buy is to be able to print stuff. So map type products are my main reason to buy, so I can easily print them. Or in the case of Mother of All Treasure Tables, easier to print out the descriptions rather than hand copy or scan and then print.
So for me, if print publishers want to sell more pdf's to me, then you guys need to either give me a serious discount coupon on the pdf when I buy the print, or lower the pdf prices across the board.
The only way to expand the pdf market is to make it so cheap compared to print that computer owners have to try them out. Only a handful of print companies, at least in the RPG business, are doing that.
I've noticed that WOTC hasn't been happy with their sales for their full priced pdf versions of their books. I guess the consumer base isn't as stupid as they hoped, or that they aren't very interested in getting pdf sales to be successful.
If people really want pdf's to take off quit thinking they compete with print at the same, or even close, price points. Most of us are smart enough to know that pdf is way cheaper for you guys to make and sell than a print book. No printing costs, no physical storage issues. Way cheaper. So charge way less than print.
By keeping them so close in price you print guys are forcing the competition. So if you don't want to have them compete, stop it. If you don't want to have pdf's undercut your print, then offer a discount on the pdf price to those who bought the print. That way you get the print sale, plus a little more off of the pdf. Otherwise you are keeping your smarter consumers at the "either/or" level of buying. Its up to you print guys to change that dynamic.
Some of you will probably lose a breath or possibly even have a heart attack hearing this from me (so if you're prone to that stuff, AND I've offended you before with my comments, please sit down, keep a glass of water and an asprin handy, and read with open eyes).
That said, here's my response to Treebore:
For those companies that ARE primarily print (or as close to 50/50 print/pdf), I agree with what you are saying for the most part. Why buy a pdf for $39 when you can get dead tree for the same price. I often feel PDFs should be cheaper given the higher margin (at least before OBS) when cutting out distributors and printing costs.
However, for those that are mostly PDF, they have to charge those prices because the market doesn't really get enough to make good cash money out of the business because distribution numbers are so small. When you're talking only getting 100-200 sales per product, and you still have to pay full price for things like art, layout, and writing (I mean, the artist and writers shouldn't get stiffed because the product doesn't sell...or should they??).
If you have $250 in art costs, $100 in writing costs, and another $200 in layout costs, you need to makes $550 just to break even. I'm being EXTREMELY light on those costs I would imagine. That means you need to sell about $850 in product before the OBS commission. Assuming 150 sales, the product has to be at least $5.67 to break even. Now, for costs as low as $550, I'm betting the product is probably less than 64 pages in length. Probably less than or around 20 pages. That's 28 cents per page, which is extremely high, considering that a WotC full color glossy snazzy book at 200 some pages is only about 19 cents per page. You're paying quite a bit more, and the poor publisher is really only making out around even.
Of course, if this were e23, they'd only have to make up about $687 in sales, and be able to price out at $4.58 to break even on similar sales. Also lowers per page pricing by about 6 cents/page. (Some of you don't believe in the cost per page model, but I do.)
Either way, IMHO, $4.58 or $5.67, both are way too darn much for such a small product, and the publisher is still only breaking even.
I expect prices to rise, little guys to fold up and go home, and guys like Phil and Gareth to do exactly what they need to do to survive and put food on the table. I don't blame them, but I'll do what every good citizen does and vote...with my wallet.
That said, here's my response to Treebore:
For those companies that ARE primarily print (or as close to 50/50 print/pdf), I agree with what you are saying for the most part. Why buy a pdf for $39 when you can get dead tree for the same price. I often feel PDFs should be cheaper given the higher margin (at least before OBS) when cutting out distributors and printing costs.
However, for those that are mostly PDF, they have to charge those prices because the market doesn't really get enough to make good cash money out of the business because distribution numbers are so small. When you're talking only getting 100-200 sales per product, and you still have to pay full price for things like art, layout, and writing (I mean, the artist and writers shouldn't get stiffed because the product doesn't sell...or should they??).
If you have $250 in art costs, $100 in writing costs, and another $200 in layout costs, you need to makes $550 just to break even. I'm being EXTREMELY light on those costs I would imagine. That means you need to sell about $850 in product before the OBS commission. Assuming 150 sales, the product has to be at least $5.67 to break even. Now, for costs as low as $550, I'm betting the product is probably less than 64 pages in length. Probably less than or around 20 pages. That's 28 cents per page, which is extremely high, considering that a WotC full color glossy snazzy book at 200 some pages is only about 19 cents per page. You're paying quite a bit more, and the poor publisher is really only making out around even.
Of course, if this were e23, they'd only have to make up about $687 in sales, and be able to price out at $4.58 to break even on similar sales. Also lowers per page pricing by about 6 cents/page. (Some of you don't believe in the cost per page model, but I do.)
Either way, IMHO, $4.58 or $5.67, both are way too darn much for such a small product, and the publisher is still only breaking even.
I expect prices to rise, little guys to fold up and go home, and guys like Phil and Gareth to do exactly what they need to do to survive and put food on the table. I don't blame them, but I'll do what every good citizen does and vote...with my wallet.
i'll offer that from some consumer standpoints, they are. i can carry a 5 lb. laptop to the game with the d20 SRD and every PDF i own on it, or most of my gaming bookshelf. guess which i opt for? i can type a keyword into the search field and find what i'm looking for in five seconds, or flip through the index (if there is one). guess which i opt for?Treebore said:
usw. convenience is a personal issue.
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