Enchantment/Charm + Long Time = Conditioning?

[Castellan]

I'm just wondering if anyone has considered what might happen if someone was exposed to a series of Enchantments or Charms for a long time?

Let's say, for example, that some Mind Flayers have been indiscriminately using Dominate Person around town, particularly on town officials, for the last few months. Presuming that the officials fail their saving throws (and, for the sake of argument, we'll presume there are enough Mind Flayers with enough spells/psionics that saves don't matter) how long might they need to be "under the influence" before they begin to think in line with the Mind Flayers' goals?

Has anyone ever adjudicated something like this?

Thanks!

 

[SylverFlame]

I would say that you have to look at this from another angle. Simply put, can the actions of a person under an enchantment change their alignment? I don't mean stripping Paladins of their class, but an actual alignment change. If alignment can shift, I'd say a person could become conditioned.

As to how long it takes, that depends on the alignment of the individual. For instance, if the Mind Flayers want to turn the town into a cattle opporation, than a LE person who has something to gain from the situation likely would shift opinion faster than a LG person.

Those are my two cents. Sorry that it's not all that helpful, but I can't really nail it down in an actual time frame. Go with what makes for a better campaign is my advice.

 

[Ferret]

It is also depends on the method, if you have used Dominate Person some word may be stuck in the characters head to influence them, if something like Charm Person is used then they maybe suade (sp?) by the other persons opinion, or more if the charmee is a "follower" rather then a leader.

What I actually mean: Dominate is a Command, Charm is a word from a friend. The two can change opinions differently.

 

[Castellan]

Thank you, both! These are good ideas.

I'm ultimately looking for a change in outlook, rather than something like an improved reaction. I'm using Mind Flayers in an Incursion-type scenario, but they're beginning their attack by using indigenous power groups already on the surface of the world. I'm hoping to set it up so that they not only "convert" those who think similarly, but also begin to strongly sway the opinions of good-aligned people, as well. By the time the PCs figure out that something is very wrong, the lion's share of the fighting should be over, making the PCs' lives very difficult! >

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm just wondering if anyone has considered what might happen if someone was exposed to a series of Enchantments or Charms for a long time?

Let's say, for example, that some Mind Flayers have been indiscriminately using Dominate Person around town, particularly on town officials, for the last few months. Presuming that the officials fail their saving throws (and, for the sake of argument, we'll presume there are enough Mind Flayers with enough spells/psionics that saves don't matter) how long might they need to be "under the influence" before they begin to think in line with the Mind Flayers' goals?

Has anyone ever adjudicated something like this?

Thanks!

I haven't but if I had too....

I'd probably bring in the concept of cognitive dissonance... people are often willing to shift their perceptions of an event or actions in order to make their behavior seem consistant. So a charmed or suggestion influenced individual who did something he would normally percieve as bad might find himself justifying it as ok. However, I think this would be less likely with the more 'blunt' enchantments like command or dominate.

So in one situation, farmer bob is placed under the suggestion "Your wife doesn't respect you and you should beat her" and thus finds himself thinking thats a good idea. Afterwards, he has to reconcile how he thought and behaved then with his current feelings. Rather than feel remorseful or guiltridden, he decides that if it seemed right at the time it probably was, and he continues the behavior rather than going through the difficult process of apologizing or trying to explain the unexplainable.

On the other hand, if farmer bob is holding a farming implement and talking to his wife in a loving way when he is placed under the command "strike!" he will also cause his wife harm. However, it was only his actions that were influenced, not his mind, and both he and his wife instantly realize that sorcery has been used against them. There is nothing to reconcile, and thus no change in his feelings. He can even say "I'm so sorry" knowing the expected and correct response will be "it was nothing that you did, my love."

So I'd say that a dominated population will be more likely to oppose the mindflayers than they even would have been normally (no one likes to be controled) whereas if suggestions or charms were used, long term effects could definitly result.

That would be my take on it, but I'm an ex psych major, so what do ya want?

Kahuna Burger

 

[Castellan]

That would be my take on it, but I'm an ex psych major...

Hmmm... Point taken. (Good ideas, too)

 

[Hardhead]

I haven't but if I had too....

I'd probably bring in the concept of cognitive dissonance... people are often willing to shift their perceptions of an event or actions in order to make their behavior seem consistant. So a charmed or suggestion influenced individual who did something he would normally percieve as bad might find himself justifying it as ok. However, I think this would be less likely with the more 'blunt' enchantments like command or dominate.

So in one situation, farmer bob is placed under the suggestion "Your wife doesn't respect you and you should beat her" and thus finds himself thinking thats a good idea. Afterwards, he has to reconcile how he thought and behaved then with his current feelings. Rather than feel remorseful or guiltridden, he decides that if it seemed right at the time it probably was, and he continues the behavior rather than going through the difficult process of apologizing or trying to explain the unexplainable.

On the other hand, if farmer bob is holding a farming implement and talking to his wife in a loving way when he is placed under the command "strike!" he will also cause his wife harm. However, it was only his actions that were influenced, not his mind, and both he and his wife instantly realize that sorcery has been used against them. There is nothing to reconcile, and thus no change in his feelings. He can even say "I'm so sorry" knowing the expected and correct response will be "it was nothing that you did, my love."

So I'd say that a dominated population will be more likely to oppose the mindflayers than they even would have been normally (no one likes to be controled) whereas if suggestions or charms were used, long term effects could definitly result.

That would be my take on it, but I'm an ex psych major, so what do ya want?

Kahuna Burger

I could see a version of Stockholm Syndrome happening with Dominated people. If you don't know what Stockholm Syndrome is, read the quote below. If you do, you can skip it:

In 1973, four Swedes held in a bank vault for six days during a robbery became attached to their captors, a phenomenon dubbed the Stockholm Syndrome. According to psychologists, the abused bond to their abusers as a means to endure violence.
- Timeline50


Psychological Responses to Terrorism
by Rev. Fr. Charles T. Brusca
At 10:15 A.M. on Thursday, August 23rd, 1973 the "Sveriges Kreditbank" of Stockholm, Sweden was rocked by sub-machine gun fire.(1) "The party has just begun", announced a 32 year old prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson. "The party", indeed, continued for some 131 hours, or five and a half days, as Olsson held four of the bank's employees hostage in an 11 by 47 foot vault until late in the evening of August 28th.

While the "Sveriges Kreditbank" robbery itself may not have been of world shattering importance, later interviews with the four hostages yielded surprising results -- results that have been confirmed in numerous other "hostage situations" in the years that followed. Even though the captives themselves were not able to explain it, they displayed a strange association with their captors, identifying with them while fearing those who sought to end their captivity. In some cases they later testified on behalf of or raised money for the legal defense of their captors. The Swedish location of the "Sveriges Kreditbank" gave its name to this mental aberration as "The Stockholm Syndrome".

Long-term psychological study of this and similar hostage situations has defined a fairly clear and characteristic set of symptoms for the Stockholm Syndrome:

The captives begin to identify with their captors. At least at first this is a defensive mechanism, based on the (often unconscious) idea that the captor will not hurt the captive if he is cooperative and even positively supportive. The captive seeks to win the favor of the captor in an almost childlike way.

The captive often realizes that action taken by his would-be rescuers is very likely to hurt him instead of obtaining his release. Attempts at rescue may turn a presently tolerable situation into a lethal one. If the bullets of the authorities don't get him, quite possibly those of the provoked captor will.

Long term captivity builds even stronger attachment to the captor as he becomes known as a human being with his own problems and aspirations. Particularly in political or ideological situations, longer captivity also allows the captive to become familiar with the captor's point of view and the history of his grievances against authority. He may come to believe that the captor's position is just.

The captive seeks to distance himself emotionally from the situation by denial that it is actually taking place. He fancies that "it is all a dream", or looses himself in excessive periods of sleep, or in delusions of being magically rescued. He may try to forget the situation by engaging in useless but time consuming "busy work". Depending on his degree of identification with the captor he may deny that the captor is at fault, holding that the would-be rescuers and their insistence on punishing the captor are really to blame for his situation.

Instead of the threat of violence, replace it with the treat of Dominated orders. When someone is given orders, they become single-mindedly devoted to following them to the letter (thus, the low Sense Motive DC to detect it). This would basically be a form of "psychological violence." No one wants their free will stripped from them. Personally, I'd be positively terrified by the prospect (almost as much as by dying). If someone would fear this sort of "violence" enough, and they were subjected to the threat of it constantly, then you could very well get a person to begin to view the Mind Flayers favorably, to empathize with them, and to actively and positively support them, to the point that they would try to stop adventurers from freeing them from the Mind Flayers without orders, as a hostage can begin to fear and prevent rescue from police.

Of course, I'm just theorizing, since we don't have Domination spells in real life, but I could see it happening.