D&D 5E Encounter Balance holds back 5E

[EzekielRaiden]

In a formal discussion, its usually polite form to go through one person's idea first before targeting definitions. I know on this specific forum you guys prefer to actually just argue definitions for 100 pages, but I ask this one time you go with the definition and only come back to critique it after going through the rest of my ideas.

I have to stress that this is how an actual academic or formal discussion would be held.

Your definition is so egregiously biased, I cannot even begin to engage with your thoughts, because they begin from demonizing something without even attempting to examine whether it has any positive characteristics at all.

You have defined "balance" so that it is an actively pernicious design evil, and then built an argument about how horrible it is to inflict an actively pernicious evil onto the game. Unless and until that part comes under question, I cannot do so.

So. Are you willing to consider that there might, possibly, maybe, be actual good things and value that can come out of the use of balance? That balance does not have to be a straightjacket? That it is not a "rigid" system, but rather a useful system?

Because this would be like starting a discussion about diction and modern language by defining "dictionaries" as rigid structures that allow no freedom and actively prevent the formation of new words. Your definition denies even the possibility of discussion.

I just wanted to express that succinctly (something I am normally very bad at doing.)

And I consider it already starting off on an impolite foot to declare "the thing I dislike is literally the worst thing ever by definition". Beginning an academic debate by defining your opponents as not merely wrong but actively trying to harm the field is not particularly conducive to academic discussion.

 

[jayoungr]

But D&D is a game of resource attrition management, rather fundamentally.

I disagree with that too. D&D is different things to different tables. It contains a resource management minigame, but that minigame is only as important as you want it to be. And I consider that to be a good thing.

 

[Parmandur]

I disagree with that too. D&D is different things to different tables. It contains a resource management minigame, but that minigame is only as important as you want it to be. And I consider that to be a good thing.

Well, no, that is not really true. The resource management game is not a side deal or a mini-game, it is central to the game. Certainly it is not necessary to pay attention to it to have fun, same as any other rule. But it is not a side part of the game design.

 

[Emberashh]

From a game design perspective, the thing that being too focused on achieving balance can do is make the idea of imbalances seem like a detriment rather than a new tool, which leads to the kind of balance thats just boring and samey.

For example, one of the classic imbalances thats interesting to see is the glass cannon. Absurd damage, practically no defense. Indeed, the classic triangle of Tank-Heal-DPS is actually a matter of imbalances that, taken together, establish balance.

When we take these kinds of interesting imbalances and push them far enough, we end up with a style of combat balance thats usually called Combat as War, or old school, or whatever.

From what I'm gathering, the topics impetus (given we're in the 5e forum) is around the proclivity of the 5e online community to emphasize the importance of balance and the issues the lack of it causes.

And it is true, 5e is imbalanced in a way that isn't good. Goodberry Bad, and all that.

But I think what Shardstone is getting at, that may be they haven't put a word to yet, is that how the community is trying to address the issue is pushing towards that samey, boring balance that isn't any more desirable than the fun-sucking imbalance 5e can have if you aren't a Mage and don't have a DM thats conscious of the problem and willing to step in.

The Mages do all need to be addressed as they are an example of extremely poor game design, but at the same time, the solution isn't to just design Martials the same way.

 

[jayoungr]

Well, no, that is not really true. The resource management game is not a side deal or a mini-game, it is central to the game. Certainly it is not necessary to pay attention to it to have fun, same as any other rule. But it is not a side part of the game design.

The game is what happens at the table, not what's printed in the book. Every table gets to decide how much weight they want to give to the resource management minigame (yes, I'm sticking by that term).

 

[Vaalingrade]

Which is why my players tend to avoid casters. More things to do is the last thing they want. They can already mess up just fine with what they have.

Good for them, but other people like choices and are starved of them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Some players simply don't find resource management especially interesting. It doesn't mean they or the GM are doing anything wrong if they prefer to focus on other things.

Agreed, but the issue is that D&D, in all editions, is a game very much concerned with resource management. If this is a problem for you, you really are better off from a game play point of view to play something else.

 

[jayoungr]

Agreed, but the issue is that D&D, in all editions, is a game very much concerned with resource management. If this is a problem for you, you really are better off from a game play point of view to play something else.

With all due respect, balderdash. If a given table doesn't play with resource management at the pinnacle of their experience, they are not "playing D&D wrong."

 

[Emberashh]

With all due respect, balderdash. If a given table doesn't play with resource management at the pinnacle of their experience, they are not "playing D&D wrong."

I assume that your table just allows all abilities and consumables to be used infinitely as many times in a row as they like, then?

 

[Micah Sweet]

With all due respect, balderdash. If a given table doesn't play with resource management at the pinnacle of their experience, they are not "playing D&D wrong."

I never said it was the pinnacle, I said it was heavily built into the gameplay.