D&D 5E End-game gimmicks: the problem with 5e meta-plots

[Ancalagon]

Because people like adventures starting at first level?


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There are no such experts available in this one particular instance, is what I was going at. Normally, you can't walk down a street in the Realms without tripping over epic level characters, but this one day is different. We don't bother to play through the millions of other potentially-epic campaign hooks that are foiled at stage one by Elminster and Drizzt or Epic Wizard #8675309, but this one is worth playing through because they aren't around right now.

It does stretch plausibility a bit.

It even stretches plausibility even more when you consider that not only are there numerous NPC of tremendeous power, there are also tons of them of... well not tremendeous power but pretty freaking solid. Wasn't there a single company of adventures level 7-9 available?!?

 

[5ekyu]

I agree. I’ve drastically slowed down the level progression for my 5E campaign. I like the idea of long adventuring careers that include multiple quests and tasks rather than one long adventure that spans all levels. I’ve pretty much abandoned the XP system entirely and I grant levels when it seems appropriate.

My 5E group has played through the following:
- Lost Mines of Phandelver (levels 1-4)
- A couple of homebrew modules (4-5)
- Princes of the Apocalypse- the Haunted Keeps and the Air Temple only (level 5)
- The 2E Planescape module Dead Gods (5-6, modified significantly)
- Homebrew module involving the City of Shade and the City of Brass (6-7)
- Curse of Strahd (8-9)
- More Homebrew and some of the higher level stuff from Princes (9-10)
- Currently just starting Tomb of Annihilation (Level 11 to probably 12)

And I still have plenty planned. J have a major overarching atory that toes most of the above together. If I played with XP and levels as expected, I feel like my PCs would never be the right level for what I want, and their career would be far too short.

So the fact that some of the high level threats in the published material requires “cheats” for the PCs to be victorious doesn’t bother me at all. It gives the option of using the material as presented, or using it as high level content without the “cheats”.

I tend to agree on the progression rate and dropping Xp.

My tier-2 advancement rates are pretty much hard coded to a level every 8 sessions give or take. So to go from 5 thru to starting 11 will take a year if we do not miss more than a couple weeks. Tier 3 may slow the progression a smidge to 10-12 sessions but that remains to be seen. I expect we will wrap the campaign after a level into tier 4 but i could be mistaken.

SInce most of it will be homebrew stealing from anything and everything whatever works its impossible to figure out how that plays based off their adventure paths.

 

[transtemporal]

I'm not sure I agree. A fight with a big bad at the end isn't a bad ending to a mega-adventure, and it's interesting if the big bad can be defeated by something other than "stand there and exchange blows until someone falls down".

My issue with the mega adventures is something different - where the hell are the big guns of the setting? Are they in tahiti sipping cocktails or something? Does no-one know Elminsters number?

 

[5ekyu]

It even stretches plausibility even more when you consider that not only are there numerous NPC of tremendeous power, there are also tons of them of... well not tremendeous power but pretty freaking solid. Wasn't there a single company of adventures level 7-9 available?!?

this again gets to some of the problems with the tropes.

I recommend looking as a Gm to lots of other sources... A good list and summary of hitchcock films, quality westerns, etc can show you plenty of good story-adventure hooks that tie in "low level PCs" into bigger plots. part of those should be keyed to character backgrounds (not just the selected package but the actual backstory.)

i find linking those elements in helps to make for a better case of "why these guys?" than the generic plug-in-play AP can... and i wish more effort was given to how to tie those kinds of things in. matter of fact, i think some of them make a bit of an effort but listing plot-hooks by background.

 

[pukunui]

My issue with the mega adventures is something different - where the hell are the big guns of the setting? Are they in tahiti sipping cocktails or something? Does no-one know Elminsters number?

Some of them are busy dealing with other existential threats. Or they're on some other plane/material world. Or they're tied down by their responsibilities. Or they've had some kind of vision telling them to sit this one out because it's time for some new heroes to shine.

In the case of ToA, many of them might also be suffering from the Death Curse.

 

[Imaculata]

I much more like quests about saving the world from big evil than saving suzies cats from the cat eating monster living deep in the cave.

In my own campaign the players have to defend a free nation of pirates from a massive fleet of pirate hunters, sent my an emperor who wants to secure his trade-route from said pirates. Not every plot has to revolve around the end of the world.

 

[CapnZapp]

That's a reaaaaly bad way to run an adventure/story. Say you have a movie, and there is need for a hero. The world is in danger? They send James Bond, not private dimwit who's never fired a gun and *might* turn out to be great, we don't know, but hey let's give him a chance!

You send low level people when the threat doesn't seem too bad (it might be dire, but no one has realized this yet) OR there is no one else to send. In this case the threat is very serious from the get go, and there are better people.



But are there no such experts in FR?! I highly doubt it.



Huh. I've been playing it as a play by post, and by level 2 it's bloody obvious that the powers that be need to send highly qualified people prompto and not just a bunch of noobs. Sure eventually we'll be high enough level and triumph, but that's metagaming.

It even stretches plausibility even more when you consider that not only are there numerous NPC of tremendeous power, there are also tons of them of... well not tremendeous power but pretty freaking solid. Wasn't there a single company of adventures level 7-9 available?!?

*shrug*

Go play something else then.

I. D&D is a game about 1st level nobodies that grow up to be 20th level somebodies.

II. It is also a game about world-ending threats only heroes can stop.

Since III. the only heroes we care about are the ones played by the players, we add I. and II. and get the inevitable conclusion.

There really is nothing to say. I'm not defending it. It just is.



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PS. The old notion of the Realms full of powerful NPCs simply isn't true in 5th edition. Lots of so-called "name" NPCs are just anemic stat blocks from the NPC section of the Monster Manual. Most of them are barely on the level of a 4th level hero (aka classed character). Very few of them push the equivalent of 10th level, and those (Mordenkainen from CoS, Vizeran from OotA, ...) are still a pale shadow of how, say, 3rd edition would portray them (as massively powerful epic-level characters in themselves).

5th edition simply does not prescribe to the notion of believable statistical distribution of heroes. There simply aren't any other Fighters or Wizards in the entire world, unless YOU place them there. (There are a fair share of Veterans and Mages, and maybe even the odd Assassin or even Archmage, but that's really it)

Nothing wrong with that, but please don't blame Wizards of the Coast for your own decisions.

 

[CapnZapp]

That said, I do sympathize with the OP.

The solution is quite simple: either eliminate the meta plot or advance players to level 18-20 and eliminate the gimmick.

You probably only need to advance to level 12-15. As others have said, few so-called "high level threats" are really that dangerous.

I think my players were level 14 (maybe 15) when they took out, first Graazt, then Demogorgon, using the non-nerfed stats given by Out of the Abyss (and the AL adventure "Assault on Maerimydra")

I guess you do have a point with Tiamat, seeing how she's CR 30. (At least that's my assumption - that you need to be level 18 to take her on directly - I didn't buy that book.)

 

[Ancalagon]

*shrug*

Go play something else then.

I. D&D is a game about 1st level nobodies that grow up to be 20th level somebodies.

II. It is also a game about world-ending threats only heroes can stop.

Since III. the only heroes we care about are the ones played by the players, we add I. and II. and get the inevitable conclusion.

There really is nothing to say. I'm not defending it. It just is.

I've already explained how you can *easily* have a campaign that satisfy both point I and II!

A: Have the threat not be super dire at first (it's revealed through play)
B: Have no one else be available/have the PC become the best people to deal with the thread.

Come on, I know you can read...

PS. The old notion of the Realms full of powerful NPCs simply isn't true in 5th edition. Lots of so-called "name" NPCs are just anemic stat blocks from the NPC section of the Monster Manual. Most of them are barely on the level of a 4th level hero (aka classed character). Very few of them push the equivalent of 10th level, and those (Mordenkainen from CoS, Vizeran from OotA, ...) are still a pale shadow of how, say, 3rd edition would portray them (as massively powerful epic-level characters in themselves).

5th edition simply does not prescribe to the notion of believable statistical distribution of heroes. There simply aren't any other Fighters or Wizards in the entire world, unless YOU place them there. (There are a fair share of Veterans and Mages, and maybe even the odd Assassin or even Archmage, but that's really it)

Nothing wrong with that, but please don't blame Wizards of the Coast for your own decisions.

That may be, but do we know that as a fact? Have stats been published for all those NPCs in 5th ed? I'm genuinely curious here.

 

[jasper]

Hmmm., I wonder how many posters here would scream bloody murder, and try to kill me; if during Season 8 just as the pcs encounter the big bad in the final chapter, the big players of the realms show up. Wax the big bad. And just give lollypops to the pcs.
...
,,,,
...
And the big players leave the pcs holding the bar tab!