D&D 5E End-game gimmicks: the problem with 5e meta-plots

[Demetrios1453]

Some of them are busy dealing with other existential threats. Or they're on some other plane/material world. Or they're tied down by their responsibilities. Or they've had some kind of vision telling them to sit this one out because it's time for some new heroes to shine.

In the case of ToA, many of them might also be suffering from the Death Curse.

In the case of ToA, they do mention that numerous other higher-level parties were sent, but none have been heard from since...

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[BMaC]

I question the 5e premise that a meta-plot is needed to engage players or make the contributions of their characters meaningful. Meta-plots hardly ever cropped up in the adventures of earlier editions and when they did, as one poster above explains, the players stumbled upon it (e.g., Queen of the Demon Web Pits starts as an investigation into giants). In any case, if the meta-plot is present then I wish the need for a gimmick could be removed.

 

[CapnZapp]

I've already explained how you can *easily* have a campaign that satisfy both point I and II!

A: Have the threat not be super dire at first (it's revealed through play)
B: Have no one else be available/have the PC become the best people to deal with the thread.

Come on, I know you can read...

Why are you directing this to me? I'm not the one writing the modules.

If you want my best guess as to why the threats are overt and simple, I would say because that makes for the most marketable sales pitches.

You want to fight a Dragon God? Or a Vampire Lord? Or a Giant King? Then play D&D!

It's simply a matter of getting to eat the cake (fighting Demogorgon) and having it too (starting out at 1st level). WotC doesn't do subtle or nuance. It doesn't sell as well. Better leave those crumbs to DMs Guild...

Zapp

PS. Why do you insist on talking about B as if this was still 3rd edition? The PCs are literally the only people ready to deal with the threats! At least in every module I've read so far.

 

[dave2008]

I can't figure out how to do [/spoiler] tags on this forum so I'll just say that in the published 5e adventures either the party receives substantial buffs or the end-boss is nerfed.

You use [sblock] instead of

 

[CapnZapp]

That may be, but do we know that as a fact? Have stats been published for all those NPCs in 5th ed? I'm genuinely curious here.

Don't get your hopes up. NPC stats are in the majority of cases resolved by simply mentioning one of the Monster Manual NPC stat blocks (such as Scout or Knight).

Though the practice varies. Princes of the Apocalypse is a bit atypical (=more like previous editions) in how many new NPC stat blocks it offers for its various cultists and priestesses. Those are distinctly evil threats, however, and not the "name" NPCs from books and lore I'm assuming our discussion is focussing on.

In some cases the author modifies such stat blocks. In most such cases, the modifications are both a) minor and b) self-evident: things like "this dwarf Scout has darkvision" because (doh) Dwarfs have darkvision.

Both Mordenkainen and Vizeran are getting the short shrift in my opinion by simply being described as (spoiler alert) Archmages.

 

[dave2008]

..., and I guess OotA's gimmick is that you can play as the demon lords fighting each other until there's only one left standing for the PCs to fight.

The fight is supposed to leave the remaining demon lord weakened, thus the PCs fight a weakend demon lord. I can't remember the specific details though.

 

[Uller]

I question the 5e premise that a meta-plot is needed to engage players or make the contributions of their characters meaningful. Meta-plots hardly ever cropped up in the adventures of earlier editions and when they did, as one poster above explains, the players stumbled upon it (e.g., Queen of the Demon Web Pits starts as an investigation into giants). In any case, if the meta-plot is present then I wish the need for a gimmick could be removed.

I think what bugs me about it is it is revealed way too early in most of these. SKT seems least guilty. But even that has 5th level characters knowing they are dealing with earthshaking events.

I said with HotDQ that it should have excluded the whole 1st level party encountering an Adult Blue Dragon and spent at least a few levels of the PCs dealing with brigands and kobalds and the local problems they cause. Get the PCs to develop a stake in the setting...only in the last couple episodes of HotDQ should there be some foreshadowing of RoT and an ascending Cult of the Dragon.

ToA should just start with the party in Chult for reasons completely unrelated to the Death Plague. Exploring ruins, ejecting colonial powers, protecting resources...let the PCs get familiar with Chult and its dangers and people. Around 5th level start to introduce the death plague and even rumors of powerful NPCs taking an interest in the area (and dying or disappearing). Then have the PCs gwt apporached to look into it. That way the "why us?" question has a logical answer: "you're here already. Others have failed and we have no time to find someone else."

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[robus]

ToA should just start with the party in Chult for reasons completely unrelated to the Death Plague. Exploring ruins, ejecting colonial powers, protecting resources...let the PCs get familiar with Chult and its dangers and people. Around 5th level start to introduce the death plague and even rumors of powerful NPCs taking an interest in the area (and dying or disappearing). Then have the PCs gwt apporached to look into it. That way the "why us?" question has a logical answer: "you're here already. Others have failed and we have no time to find someone else."

That does seem like a great way to handle these setting + adventure combo books. First half is encountering the setting, getting immersed in the feel of the place. Give the DM lots of leeway to let the adventurers explore (from level 1-5). Then in the second half (say levels 6-10/15) reveal the big plot. SKT does this very clumsily by air-dropping Harshnag in to wherever the PCs are to get part 2 rolling.

And actually this might salve some of the railroad vs. sandbox debate.

If I were to start ToA today I think I would have the PCs be recruits of one of the Princes and tasked to retrieve treasures from various lost sites (i.e. give the PCs a variety of quests they could go on). When they get back to Nyanzaru around level 5 their prince will have become afflicted with the Death Curse and send them on the quest to deal with it. ToA has some of this but by setting them on the quest from page 1 it loses a lot of that openness.

In future I will try this approach with all the new settings my players encounter, thanks for the idea!

 

[Uller]

If I were to start ToA today I think I would have the PCs be recruits of one of the Princes and tasked to retrieve treasures from various lost sites (i.e. give the PCs a variety of quests they could go on). When they get back to Nyanzaru around level 5 their prince will have become afflicted with the Death Curse and send them on the quest to deal with it. ToA has some of this but by setting them on the quest from page 1 it loses a lot of that openness.

In future I will try this approach with all the new settings my players encounter, thanks for the idea!

You're welcome. Wish I could try it. My players don't want to give up their PCs...we played LMoP, then at level 5 started PotA and skipped the whole starting chapter.

We finished that at level 11. Then they wanted to play Ravenloft...that took them to 13 and now we are two sessions into ToA...with 13th level PCs. Zombie spewing T-Rexes just lack the same oomph against such a well established party....but oh well. Ras Nsi will have a Yuanti Anathema and the Red Wizards will be 12th level and higher, lead by a lich and actively trying to thwart the party...so it should be epic. I'm hoping at some point I'll have Valindra, Acerak, Ras Nsi in demigod form and a 15th level party all in the same place and all trying to kill eachother.

My hope is after this we can return to low level PCs and play one of these as I described.

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[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think what bugs me about it is it is revealed way too early in most of these. SKT seems least guilty. But even that has 5th level characters knowing they are dealing with earthshaking events.

I said with HotDQ that it should have excluded the whole 1st level party encountering an Adult Blue Dragon and spent at least a few levels of the PCs dealing with brigands and kobalds and the local problems they cause. Get the PCs to develop a stake in the setting...only in the last couple episodes of HotDQ should there be some foreshadowing of RoT and an ascending Cult of the Dragon.

ToA should just start with the party in Chult for reasons completely unrelated to the Death Plague. Exploring ruins, ejecting colonial powers, protecting resources...let the PCs get familiar with Chult and its dangers and people. Around 5th level start to introduce the death plague and even rumors of powerful NPCs taking an interest in the area (and dying or disappearing). Then have the PCs gwt apporached to look into it. That way the "why us?" question has a logical answer: "you're here already. Others have failed and we have no time to find someone else."

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I am currently a player in a ToA game and yes, the setup makes little sense other than to get the new PC into a save the world situation and telegraph it right off the bat. We were all asking why are we being sent if this is so important to so many big shot?