enemy caster w/ Reactive Counterspell - obnoxious?

[Joshua Randall]

My PCs (7 @ 15th-16th level) are about to engage in the penultimate battle of the campaign. Unbeknowst to the PCs -- who plan the old scry/buff/teleport -- the bad guys are well prepared because they have been scrying and spying on the PCs.

So, I thought it would be a reasonable tactic for the bad guys to employ a spellcaster with Reactive Counterspell as a foil for the PC casters. However, I'm now worried that this tactic might be too obnoxious, as it will basically render one (or more) of the PCs useless... at least until they can find and kill the counterspeller.

What do you think?

 

[hong]

I think this kind of thing is fine, as a one-off. However, doing it routinely would definitely get annoying.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If the enemies know all this, have them put up that Teleport delaying spell that makes the people Teleporting in get stuck in transit for a bit while the caster is notified. This gives the enemies time to buff as well.

As to Reactive Counterspelling--it's perfectly valid. Heck, give the NPC a level in Archmage and Mastery of Counterspelling as well!

Also, since this is the penultimate battle, just make sure it isn't too taxing on them so that they'll be prepared for the last battle that comes after.

 

[Gregor]

Since the badguys know the PCs are coming, why dont they just ward their base to redirect the teleporting party to another part of their complex. The badguys could have prepared an ambush in this room (with some elite minions) to force the PCs to use their resources here, instead of on the BBEG and his crew. You could even have a programmed illusion of your BBEG ready to go off as soon as they teleport in and he can give some super evil monologue about how the PCs underestimated him and his power and that they are all going to die. Then he wishes them all a nice day and blinks out while the minions begin their attack.

Just my two cents.

 

[Joshua Randall]

If the enemies know all this, have them put up that Teleport delaying spell that makes the people Teleporting in get stuck in transit for a bit while the caster is notified. This gives the enemies time to buff as well.

Since the badguys know the PCs are coming, why dont they just ward their base to redirect the teleporting party to another part of their complex. The badguys could have prepared an ambush in this room (with some elite minions) to force the PCs to use their resources here

Done and done.

Actually, instead of delaying their teleport, I had it get redirected to a magical trap adapted from the Age of Worms Adventure Path -- the one

Spoiler

in Lashonna's manshion that sticks the PCs in a magic circle with an antilife shell so they can't get out, plus it's infused with negative energy so they take damage every round

. Then I added some suped-up greater shadows to do their Spring Attack thing while the PCs were busy.

The PCs ended up getting out of the trap fairly easily when the wizard disintegrated

Spoiler

the magic circle itself

-- but that's one less big spell he'll have later.

Blah blah blah... now I'm rambling.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I think this kind of thing is fine, as a one-off. However, doing it routinely would definitely get annoying.

This is my view on it as well. The annoyance factor could very well lead to a "high-five" factor when they finally solve the problem.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

In my opinion, this kind of tactic goes right into the box labeled "Things that we would expect in real life but in which require us to suspend belief to make gaming fun."

This kind of tactic is the same as putting in the old "puzzle" to get through. For example, in another thread the example of a wizard's lab containing a secret passageway is described. Since I don't know the thread, I'll make another example up:

- - - - -

The party enteres the wizards main study room of his library. They know that the wizard keeps his two most significant spellbooks in a secret room. Inside the room is four walls of floor to ceiling full bookshelves, a chair and desk, a miniature crystal ball on a gold stand resting upon the desk, and a brass candlabra. The miniature crystal ball appears to have one hemisphere filled with a gray cloud, and the cloudy side is pointed in the direction of the chair. What they don't know and have to figure out is how to activate the secret opening.

Here's how it is done, and three things must be accomplished. One the third shelf of the bookshelf behind the desk is a book entitled "Magical Trapfinding." That book must be pushed back so that it is against the back of the bookshelf. This will produce a single click. Second, the miniature crystal ball sitting upon his desk must be rotated 180 degrees so that the clear side is facing the chair. This will produce a second click. Third, the brass candalabra must have all the candles taken off of it. This will produce a third click and the secret door opens.

- - - - -

My point? The above scenario makes for a good entry in a novel or a movie. Because it is scripted. It makes for a poor game because it halts the PCs ability entirely (unless you allow for an INT check to figure out the puzzle - bt at that rate why go to the effort of designing a cool puzzle to allow a dice roll to beat it? Just don't include it!). Furthermore, it is precisely the thing I would expect to find in the wizard's inner studty! So, we must suspend reality and for the sake of "fun" ignore that this is precisely the type of thing that we would actually find.

The same is true for your counterspelling agent. That is precisely the tactic that we would expect to find in a fight, especially if the BBEGs know it and are high enough level to do it. It makes great sense! But, we must suspend reality and claim that this type of tactic is off limits because it interferes with fun.

That is the nature of our game. It is unfortunate, but true. This would make a great battle in the novel because the author is in control of everything and writing about the characters is the fun. It makes for poor tabletop experiences because the fun is being stomped on by the counterspeller.

Just my 2 cents, though.

 

[Rystil Arden]

In my opinion, this kind of tactic goes right into the box labeled "Things that we would expect in real life but in which require us to suspend belief to make gaming fun."

This kind of tactic is the same as putting in the old "puzzle" to get through. For example, in another thread the example of a wizard's lab containing a secret passageway is described. Since I don't know the thread, I'll make another example up:

- - - - -

The party enteres the wizards main study room of his library. They know that the wizard keeps his two most significant spellbooks in a secret room. Inside the room is four walls of floor to ceiling full bookshelves, a chair and desk, a miniature crystal ball on a gold stand resting upon the desk, and a brass candlabra. The miniature crystal ball appears to have one hemisphere filled with a gray cloud, and the cloudy side is pointed in the direction of the chair. What they don't know and have to figure out is how to activate the secret opening.

Here's how it is done, and three things must be accomplished. One the third shelf of the bookshelf behind the desk is a book entitled "Magical Trapfinding." That book must be pushed back so that it is against the back of the bookshelf. This will produce a single click. Second, the miniature crystal ball sitting upon his desk must be rotated 180 degrees so that the clear side is facing the chair. This will produce a second click. Third, the brass candalabra must have all the candles taken off of it. This will produce a third click and the secret door opens.

- - - - -

My point? The above scenario makes for a good entry in a novel or a movie. Because it is scripted. It makes for a poor game because it halts the PCs ability entirely (unless you allow for an INT check to figure out the puzzle - bt at that rate why go to the effort of designing a cool puzzle to allow a dice roll to beat it? Just don't include it!). Furthermore, it is precisely the thing I would expect to find in the wizard's inner studty! So, we must suspend reality and for the sake of "fun" ignore that this is precisely the type of thing that we would actually find.

The same is true for your counterspelling agent. That is precisely the tactic that we would expect to find in a fight, especially if the BBEGs know it and are high enough level to do it. It makes great sense! But, we must suspend reality and claim that this type of tactic is off limits because it interferes with fun.

That is the nature of our game. It is unfortunate, but true. This would make a great battle in the novel because the author is in control of everything and writing about the characters is the fun. It makes for poor tabletop experiences because the fun is being stomped on by the counterspeller.

Just my 2 cents, though.

I don't know--if you use it sparingly, it could be a lot of fun to find a way to beat it.

"Blast, he is shadowing my every spell with a counterspell...but...Aha! I'll lead with a Quickened spell to distract him, then once he has wasted his counterspell, I'll follow up with the real spell!"

If you use it every time, admittedly it gets very annoying.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I don't know--if you use it sparingly, it could be a lot of fun to find a way to beat it.

"Blast, he is shadowing my every spell with a counterspell...but...Aha! I'll lead with a Quickened spell to distract him, then once he has wasted his counterspell, I'll follow up with the real spell!"

If you use it every time, admittedly it gets very annoying.

I could see this being fun for a very short amount of time - again, depending on the group.

At high level, combats tend to take a long time. Spellcasters especially tend to take a long time. I imagine it would be very frustrating to spend a few minutes trying to find a spell and getting prepared to work out its effects only to hear the DM tell you it didn't matter. One round is interesting ... challenging perhaps. Second round is frustrating ... but maybe still challenging. Third round (and all the time that has gone by since the combat started) has likely becoma annoying.

If combat was as quick as in a video game, the annoyance wouldn't have as much time to build. But in high level combat I imagine that the time involved would actually help make this tactic annoying even more quickly.

Of course, it depends on the group. I had a group that loved to figure out scenarios like the one that I listed above. They would probably also enjoy the counterspelling agent. But that group was ... unique ... in its playing preferences. I think most groups would just get annoyed - especially if there were other minions keeping the rest of the party busy so they couldn't find the counterspeller without putting themselves in jeopardy.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I think it's a great idea to have a counterspeller who can be reached somewhat easily in melee, but isn't the main important target. The PCs have to choose between killing him while the real threat unloads on the PCs, or killing the threat while losing powerful spells.