Energy Substitution

[Scion]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/energytypes.html


Sonic is loud noises (audible to humans or not) and intense vibrational energy (whether communicated directly, as from a screaming weapon, or indirectly, such as feeling your guts churn from being too close to a bass speaker at a concert). In short, energy of motion/vibration that isn't a result of "linear" kinetic energy from momentum (such as a swinging sword hitting you). [This is one of those times where using physics to describe something in D&D falls short, since vibrational energy--sound--is technically a form of kinetic energy, but oh well.]

 

[Scion]

The preceeding quote may or may not matter, I just find it interesting.

I also see no difference between a massive vibrational 'sonicball' that has a definate radius and a 'fireball' which has a definate radius. Either they both make some sense, or neither do

As for hearing it farther away, sure, but it is only a bit of sound. Much like the fireball can be seen from far away, but it is only a bit of light. Same sort of thing.

It can even 'look like' a massive distortion in the air, so that it is about as visible as a big water ball. Compressed air has some odd properties.

 

[billd91]

I currently allow Energy Substitution in my Greyhawk campaign but I don't allow sonic substitution except for bards (I figure bards getting this ability wouldn't be much of a problem and offers a nice little class-oriented perk). I did that because there are very few creatures that I know of who have much sonic immunity in a typical D&D campaign, much less a Greyhawk one. There are plenty with resistance to cold or fire, so I figure they kind of balance out. Lighting and acid are kind of iffy in some ways, but there have been creatures resistant to those since 1st edition, including mainly devils/demons and dragons (classic D&D monsters all round).
As for being completely immune to sonic damage spells thanks to the Silence 15' radius spell, that can be modified. Treat is as energy resistance 20 or something like that. Sonic spell damage is certainly a different animal than ambient sounds. With the expansion of that energy type, I think it's reasonable to make some changes to Silence to account for a little more balance.

 

[Merlion]

I'm not sure I understand.

You disallow Sonic substitution on the grounds that its to powerful because defenses against it are to rare, but then you say you want to reduce the effectiveness of one of the most effective defenses against it?

Or I am just misunderstanding what you're saying?

The only two actual differences between sonic and any other energy in terms of mechanics, is that there are less creatures that are resistant to it, and it does full damage to objects
It can be defended against by Resist or Protection From Energy just like the others...besides the fact that Silence can negate them entirely.

However in 3.5 acid also does full damage to objects...and acid resistant creatures are pretty rare as well.

And letting Bards take it is a little redundant. The only damage dealing spells a bard gets (Sound Burst, Should, Greater Shout) are already sonic

 

[billd91]

I'm not sure I understand.

You disallow Sonic substitution on the grounds that its to powerful because defenses against it are to rare, but then you say you want to reduce the effectiveness of one of the most effective defenses against it?

<snip>

And letting Bards take it is a little redundant. The only damage dealing spells a bard gets (Sound Burst, Should, Greater Shout) are already sonic

This assumes I'm using just the regular bard list for the bards in my campaign or that bards couldn't compose their own spells by doing spell research. Clearly they can.

As far as Silence goes, I don't see much point in a 2nd level spell potentially making someone completely immune to a higher level damaging spell. Considering Silence was core, Energy Substitution was not, I have the feeling that Silence wasn't even considered when it came to the design of the Energy Substitution feat. If it was, then the designer, I think, wasn't thinking clearly. As it is, Resist Energy (Sonic) and Protection from Energy (Sonic) kind of pale in comparison, the only benefits being you aren't hedging out your own ability to make noise and Protection from Energy's longer duration.
When it was just Shout and Sound Burst and a few oddball creatures, Silence didn't seem unbalancing. Add Energy Substitution, allow sonic with it, and I think Silence should be adjusted accordingly.
And as I said, I thought acid and lighting were iffy but I was optemistically allowing it because resistance to those "energies" has a long and well known history in the game, including monsters that are pretty commonly used.

 

[Merlion]

But what I am getting at is, you've decided that substituting sonic is to powerful....but you've also decided having a good defense against it is to powerful.

I'd say the two sort of negate each other. It gives Sonic some drawbacks (it actualy has a couple). One drawback, pretty much nothing is vulnerable to sonic. And another...any sonic spell is stopped by Silence.

I think its very possible that the designers did think of this, and felt that Sonic energies destructive ability against objects and the rarity of resistance to it is balanced by the fact that its the only energy type that is blocked entirely by a single spell (a spell that most casters arent going to want to be in the radius of even if their is danger of sonic attack however since it robs them of much of their power)

Bear in mind also that a Bard's Countersong ability can offer great protection from sonic attacks.

This assumes I'm using just the regular bard list for the bards in my campaign

Yes, I am assuming that because I dont know anything about your campaign, and these discussions generaly assume/default to the core rules.