Enlightened Fist Shenanigans

[Nessin]

You're missing the part where the feat can be taking multiple times, and its effects stack.

No, you're making the same mistake everyone else, looking at the FEAT and not the ability of the Enlightened Fist. The Arcane Fist ability is what I quoted, the Rapid Stunning feat is useless in this argument if the DM takes the Arcane Fist literally and states you can only use Arcane Fist once per day.

Basically, take as many stunning attacks as you want, but only once per day can you substitute a single attack for the Arcane Fist ability.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

You're missing the part where the feat can be taking multiple times, and its effects stack.

That's a problem with the feat, not the class.

Unless you are of the opinion that Rapid Stunning multiplies (duplicates?) a previous Stunning Fist attack? It doesn't do this. It just adds another Stunning Fist per day to the character's total per day amount. It takes a whole feat just to add one more.

The class ability lets a character use up one Stunning Fist per day so as to deliver a pre-cast touch spell with an unarmed full attack action. A Rapid Stunning doesn't let the character deliver another pre-cast touch spell because that pre-cast touch spell has been discharged (assuming it was a hit). And for someone to bring in Sudden Metamagic into it, that is another feat to have been selected. How many feats does it take to make this ability really "broken"? What level character is this now and how does it compare?

I dunno, I guess I have just found too many arcane spellcasters, who would avoid melee ranges entirely. I don't think the Enlightened Fist overcomes the drawbacks of melee range spellcasting enough to make this ability a frequently abused concept... and then it takes even more feats to soften the problem...

I dunno... I don't see it.

 

[Brain]

Unless you are of the opinion that Rapid Stunning multiplies (duplicates?) a previous Stunning Fist attack? It doesn't do this. It just adds another Stunning Fist per day to the character's total per day amount. It takes a whole feat just to add one more.

Rapid Stunning allows the use of one additional stunning fist powered thing per round, stacking with itself.

Extra Stunning is the feat that allows more uses per day, and it gives 3 more.

How many feats does it take to make this ability really "broken"?

It takes Stunning Fist, and two or more feats into rapid stunning. That allows two or more non-quickened spells in the same round. That is what I see as broken.

To everybody:
What about the "limit" of one spell per turn that I mention in the original post of this thread? Is there a specific rule about limiting non-quickened spells other than their casting time?

 

[the Jester]

Simply rule that the spell counts as the enlightened fist's quickened spell for the round. Then, short of epic levels and the Multispell epic feat, you're golden- only one per round. The balance is restored.

 

[Squire James]

I pretty much rule that ANY spell cast as a free action (or less) counts as a quickened spell, and thus only 1 per round.

At the time the Rapid Stunning feat was written, the only attacks that could take the place of a Stunning Fist attempt were attacks that caused other "status conditions" such as blind or nauseate. Obviously it couldn't account for the fact that some fool was going to make a prestige class that let you cast a spell in the place of a Stunning Fist attempt. When the rules go against common sense, it is normally better for the rule to fall than the common sense.

No, you don't get a free melee attack with your bow after you shot someone down, even if you DO have Cleave and the feat's text doesn't disallow it!

 

[azmodean]

Nail hit this one right on the hammer (sorry)

Here are the applicable rules:

Rapid Stunning
Benefit: You may use one additional stunning attack (or other special attack that counts against your daily limit of stunning attacks) per round.

Normal: You may only attempt a stunning attack (or any other special attack that counts against your daily limit of stunning attacks) once per round.

Special: A character can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack

Arcane Fist (su): Beginning at 3rd level, an enlightened fist can spend one of her daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike attack she makes during the action.

A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round

The RAW support this synergy, it looks ironclad to me, which seems quite broken. You can, of course, house rule that this counts as the "free action" spell, but as you can see from the emphasis I added, it is part of another action, not a free action itself, which means it technically is not affected by the one free action spell a round rule.
The only issues that might make this not broken I can see are how many levels of spellcaster does the arcane fist have to give up to do this combo and how many attacks a round can they make considering their spellcasting levels. In the past I would have also said low caster level = low penetration = not as broken, but now there is practised spellcaster...

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Here are my emphases:

Here are the applicable rules:

Arcane Fist (su): Beginning at 3rd level, an enlightened fist can spend one of her daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike attack she makes during the action.

Rules as Written, as it is.

The casting and delivering of the touch spell happens as part of an unarmed full attack action. Not before or outside of the unarmed full attack action. As a part of.

It might be nitpicky to say that the literal use of "one of her daily stunning attempts," vs. "a daily stunning attempt" should mean only one daily stunning attempt can be used until the next day. *shrug* That may be too strict, but it provides some clarity here. That it says "one" here is helpful in that even with Rapid Stunning granting additional stunning attempts per round, the Arcane Fist ability only allows spending of one Stunning Fist as a part of the unarmed full attack action.

But I think it is pretty rules tight that the Arcane Fist rules state casting and delivery of one touch spell happens within the unarmed full attack action. The synergy doesn't provide for multiple castings of touch spells within the unarmed full attack action.

P.S. Thanks for Brain for pointing out my blending of Rapid Stunning and Extra Stunning in my previous post.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Nail]

...but it provides some clarity here.

No offense, but: don't kid yerself.

The Arcane Fist power is clear. The Rapid Stunning feat is clear. Together, they are blindingly clear: they're a legitimate but broken combo.

As azmodean rightly pointed out, the Arcane Fist power is not a free action, so we can't bring in the "only one free action spell per round" life-saver. That's too bad, really.

Still, it's easy enough to rule zero it. In fact, I doubt any experienced DM would leave it as is.