Enlightened Grognard: Poisons

[amnuxoll]

These are fair points, if a bit exaggerated. How about this as a softer version:

Poison can be treated with magic (e.g., a neutralize poison spell) or with the Heal skill. Treating someone with the Heal skill is a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity. If you are treating someone in combat, this applies a penalty to the skill check
(usually -5).

 

[ValhallaGH]

if a bit exaggerated.

Really? I thought I nailed it exactly. I'd appreciate clarification on what I did exaggerate. (I hate doing things by accident, and always try to learn what happened so that I can avoid doing them again on accident.)

How about this as a softer version:

Poison can be treated with magic (e.g., a neutralize poison spell) or with the Heal skill. Treating someone with the Heal skill is a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity. If you are treating someone in combat, this applies a penalty to the skill check (usually -5).

So, AoO and a -5 to your check.
Yeah, that's a lot more survivable, and still leaves room for Delay Poison to be useful (i.e. don't have neutralize yet, but can delay till the end of combat, when the check gets easier).

I'd have to say that I like that softer version a lot better, for playability. It makes poison a serious threat but less of a death sentence. It's a good and powerful option, that can have serious long-term effects, but isn't an I Win button for the wielder.

 

[Kerrick]

I agree - when I read that, I said "Whoa!". 1 Con damage/round will kill your average person inside of a minute (maybe 2-3 rounds, depending on his luck). That would be fine for the higher-end poisons like death blade, but arsenic is supposed to be a "mild" poison.

Treating poison with the Heal skill is already in the rules - every time the tended person makes a check, he uses the other person's Heal check or his save, whichever is higher (and there's no penalty listed). I'd much prefer that version, personally. Also, there should be a way to shake off the effects of poison on your own - otherwise paralytics and sleep poisons become far too powerful, because no one ever recovers from them. Does a single Heal check cure the poison?

 

[amnuxoll]

Also good points. How about this: If a victim is able to endure the effects of the poison for a full minute then the effects cease.

Saving throws work differently than normal in my game so a Heal skill check can't substitute for a saving throw. But I think it'd be fine to do that.

 

[Kerrick]

That could work. But why a full minute across the board? Maybe have some (weaker) poisons go faster, and some stick around longer? In that case, I'd drop the "average" time to 5 rounds; something weak like giant wasp poison could last for 2-4 rounds, while black lotus would affect the victim for a full minute (making it very deadly).

 

[amnuxoll]

It's only my opinion, of course, but I think that adds too much complexity to the design for little gain. If you go back to my original post you'll recall I'm looking to make things easier to do and remember. The DM should not have to remember how long the poison has been in effect.

More generally it's my opinion that anything that requires you to keep track of a duration is a weakness of the rules. The only reason I'm ok with a 1 minute limit on poisons is because 99% of the time it won't matter since the PCs will treat it before the time limit ends.

These revised poison rules accomplish what I want:
1. They make poison a real threat rather than something that can be safely ignored.
2. They don't require accounting. Poisoned simply becomes a condition like dazed or prone that either is or is not.
3. They aren't that different from the original 3.5 rules. This is an improvement, not an abandonment.

 

[Kerrick]

Ah, that's cool. As long as you're happy with what you've got, you're good to go.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Also good points. How about this: If a victim is able to endure the effects of the poison for a full minute then the effects cease.

That's probably a nice compromise. A rare occurrence*, but a solid compromise.

[sblock=* How Rare?]
Assume a Dwarf Fighter 5, with a 16 Con. Fort Save is +7 / +9 vs. Poison. Hit with Arsenic, always rolls a 9 on his save. DC 13.
Round 1, make his save, lose one Con (15). Save now +8 v Poison.
Round 2, make his save, lose one Con (14).
Round 3, make his save, lose one Con (13). Save now +7 v Poison.
Round 4, make his save, lose one Con (12).
Round 5, make his save, lose one Con (11). Save now +5 v Poison.
Round 6, make his save, lose one Con (10).
Round 7, make his save, lose one Con (9). Save now +4 v Poison.
Round 8, make his save, lose one Con (8).
Round 9, make his save, lose one Con (7). Save now +3 v Poison.
Round 10, fail his save, lose 1d4+1 Con (5 to 2). Save now +2 or +1 v Poison. Poison ends.

Assume a Human Fighter 5, with same base stats. 14 Con, +6 vs. Poison. Hit with Arsenic, always rolls a 9 on his save. DC 13.
Round 1, make his save, lose one Con (13). Save now +5 v Poison.
Round 2, make his save, lose one Con (12).
Round 3, make his save, lose one Con (11). Save now +4 v Poison.
Round 4, make his save, lose one Con (10).
Round 5, make his save, lose one Con (9). Save now +3 v Poison.
Round 6, fail his save, lose 1d4+1 Con (7 to 4). Save now +2 to +1 v Poison.
Round 7, fail his save, lose 1d4+1 Con (5 to -). Save now +1 v Poison, or Dead.
Round 8, fail his save, lose 1d4+1 Con (3 to -). Save now +0 v Poison, or Dead.
Round 9, fail his save, lose 1d4+1 Con (1 to -). Save now -1 v Poison, or Dead.
Round 10, fail his save, lose 1d4+1 Con (-). Dead

The Dwarf is a "best realistic case", the Human is a baseline hero case. The Dwarf barely survived (hooray racial bonus against poisons), and will need 11 to 14 days to recover (or up to 7 Lesser Restoration spells). The human died as early as round 7 (without rolling an early failure), and was guaranteed to die by round 10.

Congratulations, by standard saving throw rules, you've got a very deadly set of poison rules. I hope it works out well for you and yours. Good luck.[/sblock]

 

[amnuxoll]

Congratulations, by standard saving throw rules, you've got a very deadly set of poison rules. I hope it works out well for you and yours. Good luck.

Thanks for the math. This feels about right to me. Arsenic may be relatively weak, but it is still a poison and should be potentially deadly.

:AMN:

 

[ValhallaGH]

Quick question. How are you planning to run multiple doses onto the same victim?