Enlightened Grognard: Reducing the Skill List

[ValhallaGH]

Lately though I've been wrestling with an idea for a more dramatic change.

One option that I've been considering is to divorce skill points from Int, leaving intelligence useful for skill bonuses, prerequisites, appropriate checks, casting some spells, and getting freebie in-character knowledge because your character is smart enough to think of more things than other folks do.
As for skills per level, I'd renumber each class based upon a) minimum skills needed to do their jobs, b) number of additional skills needed to be a moderately rounded adventurer, c) size of the total skill list. (a) and (c) would be the principal factors in determining the new values, and I haven't figured out what those are yet, but something like Rogues can get 1/3 of the total skills, Wizards can get about 1/2 of the knowledge and magic skills, Fighters can get most of the athletic skills, etc. seems like the guidelines I'd end up following.

The people I game with are generally mature enough to put appropriate stats into their mental scores for the character they're trying to play. Further, the skill bonuses and free knowledge should provide sufficient incentive to keep INT as a useful stat for most characters.


Something I'm seriously considering and thought I'd mention for others to think about.

 

[Dimitri Mazieres]

I voted for the following:

Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble → Acrobatics (new skill)
Climb, Jump, Swim → Athletics (new skill)
Disguise → Bluff
Listen, Spot → Perception
Hide → Stealth (although I think this one should include Move Silently, which was probably an oversight)

 

[Celebrim]

I voted for the following:

Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble → Acrobatics (new skill)
Climb, Jump, Swim → Athletics (new skill)
Disguise → Bluff
Listen, Spot → Perception
Hide → Stealth (although I think this one should include Move Silently, which was probably an oversight)

The big problem I have with combining skills like this is it that it forces you to make many modifiers conditional.

For example, an ooze or something that acquires ooze like traits you gain a large bonus on escape artist checks. If I combine balance, escape artist, and tumble into a single acrobatics skill, I then have to write alot of things like, "Oozes have a +50 bonus on acrobatics, when using a acrobatics to escape or squeeze." And the even bigger problem here is the modifier is now conditional, which means that instead of writing it down and being able to forget about it, I or the player have to look up the base acrobatics skill check, then remember that there is a conditional modifier, look up the conditional modifier, and then perform the addition.

The result is that the attempt to simplify the skill system has led to being actually being more complicated in play, which is the very time you don't want to have extra complexity.

This is one of the reasons I resist combining skills where modifiers to special usages of the skill would be common. If modifiers to a particular usage of the skill would be common, I'm very likely to want to keep it as a separate skill. It's kind of unavoidable that there will be conditional modifiers (otherwise, you end up with alot of skills that are too narrow), but I don't want to create them when I don't have to.

 

[Will]

The way I generally handle skill consolidation in my games is twofold: multiple ability associations and a Background skill.
To solve the whole knowledge base issue, I've created a Background skill which is at its most basic level Knowledge + Craft + Profession rolled into one skill.

I REALLY like this idea. I had come up with a somewhat more cumbersome related idea at one point (basically letting one of Knowledge/Craft/Profession be used for similar other skills at various penalties), but this is a lot simpler. YOINK

As part of my (overcomplicated) idea, I'd also be liberal about overlap; if you have Profession (sailor), fine, use it for Use Rope.

As for the poll, I mostly like the changes Pathfinder introduces, though I always found it odd they rolled up so many skills but left Climb and Swim out. I'd personally have Athletics be Climb/Swim(/Fly, in PF) and then Acrobatics be Tumble/Balance/Jump

I'd make a lot of changes, but I think I'd have Appraise fall under many skills; a subset of craft, or knowledge, or... depending. (Maybe I'm weird, but appraise rarely comes up in games I've run/been in)

 

[Will]

As for conditional modifiers, I don't think it's that big a deal, myself. A lot of the modifiers for monsters are already conditional, like
'Lions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12. '

So, 'thri-kreen have a +30 racial bonus to jump' becomes 'thri-kreen have a +30 racial bonus to Acrobatics (jump)'

There are upsides to this, however... with a skill like Perception, you can more easily handle things like 'Uh, I want to use my Scent to figure out whose outfit this is... what... what do I roll?'

 

[Hawken]

Take a look at the Star Wars Saga rules regarding skills. They've done a lot of consolidating and they present it in a logical format.

The biggest problems with 3.5 skills isn't so much the list as the mechanics.

1) Skill check vs. anything else is broken. Skills should be opposed by skills and they should be opposed by a person not a flat DC.
--Diplomacy. Flat DCs don't take into account the insight, experience or relationship with the person you're trying to diplomacize.
--Intimidate. Opposed by a level check, the level check will fail nearly every time.
--Sleight of Hand. There is no mechanic for actually stopping the theft, only noticing it. Broken.

2) Knowledge skills provide no tangible benefits. They should be able to provide at the least a +1 or 2 circumstance bonus against something.

3) The rank system. After level 5, you're going to be acing just about every skill check unless its an opposed check. The DCs should be based on the difficulty relative to the person making the check. Something that is of average difficulty for a 10th level character would be pretty easy for a 20th level, while something easy for them would be nearly impossible for a 1st level character.

4) Since rogues are skill monkeys, even with a consolidated list you're going to have to either give them a lot of skills or give them a bonus to the skills they do have. Or maybe consolidate skills ONLY for them. Rogues might be so good at sneaking around that for them Hide and Move Silently is a single skill (Stealth), but for everyone else, its Hide and Move Silently. Maybe rogues are so alert that Listen, Search and Spot are a single skill for them (Perception), but for everyone else (except maybe elves), its 3 different skills.

5) Have skills that actually get used in your game. Get rid of the others. Really, how often has anyone used Balance, Forgery, or Use Rope? Make Balance a part of tumble because if someone is doing flips and springing around, you've got to reasonably believe they've got enough balance to do it. Forgery? Anyone can do it. Its a lie (Bluff) on paper, good enough to pass quick visual (Spot) inspection, but for someone to closely examine it (Search), the ruse is up unless it was "professionally" done (Craft: Forgery).
Use Rope? To throw a grappling hook? Attack roll, your BAB vs. the "AC" of the wall. To tie someone up? Grapple check with a +10 bonus and the target starts off in a Pin. Tying ropes together? Int/Dex check.