[ENnies] WotC on the outs

[Nikchick]

One of the things that I found interesting was that fact that a few select products continually showed up in multiple categories time and time again with some of those products winning multiple awards (Green Ronin and Privateer Press). This is not to say that those products were not deserving of those awards because in some categories they were definitely (in my opinion) the better product. However, there are others where their wins were questionable given the competition.

I would very much appreciate it if you would elaborate on this. Green Ronin won a gold ENnie for Best D20 game, and we won the Peer Award. In all other cases we came in as runners-up. I'll say this right now: my goal as a publisher is to produce material worthy of critical acclaim and we set out to make books that are EXCELLENT every time. Not just good, not average, we want to produce EXCELLENT material, every time. I want those gold ENnies! I want to improve the quality of our products so that instead of silver ENnies, we can *earn* the gold.

I must admit that this thread has taken much of the wind out of my sails already, since it seems that our wins this year are going to be held up as examples of a company "unfairly" dominating the awards. Book of the Righteous spent a full year as the top-rated D20 book on D20reviews.com, and was awarded the silver ENnie! I certainly felt that we earned that award, and I was further motivated to come out with something that people would think is even better so we might get to take home that gold ENnie someday as well. I want to win gold for Best Publisher someday.

It's really bumming me out to see Green Ronin brought up in this way, when I still feel like we have so much to achieve. I'm not ready to be declared "The Man" and reviled for keeping everyone else down.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

A suggestion for next year's awards would be to limit any single product to one category.

If a product was restricted to a single category, you would avoid the problem of having fans vote for it in every category it is listed just because they like that particular book.

Another problem with this years awards was the realtively small timeframe where the voting was open.

I agree, I agree, I agree.

If you want publishers to get behind and support the awards (which, after speaking to many after the awards, will likely not enter next year), the awards must mean something to them. There has to be a tangible benefit and a reasonable opportunity to for a nomination and subsequent win. If there is not, the awards are meaningless to them and they will not feel inclined to participate.

Don't agree with that at all. That's a whole lotta sour grapes there. There has to be a tangible benefit AND a reasonable opportunity for a nomination AND a subsequent win? I don't think that's even possible for every publisher to expect that, even if you cut the entries back to one category per product.

I know that probably sounds funny coming from me, since I wasn't even going to enter this year-- but it wasn't because I am not behind the ENnies even when I have no expectation of winning. It was mostly just pure laziness and an honest desire to see... well, this. To see how it played out this year after such a long discussion last year.

Anyhow, I was thrilled just to be nominated, and went to the ENnies with no delusions about winning against the... well, against the gorillas. (Hopes, yes; expectations, no...) I still say the nominations have all the tangible benefit and personal satisfaction any publisher needs. After that, you just need to get on board with the concept that this is a popularity contest, pure and simple. I can handle the concept that my tiny, tiny distribution of products can be recognized for quality while not necessarily being a household name.

Bring on the gorillas, 400 or 800 lbs or otherwise.

Wulf

 

[BryonD]

**Sigh** Not this argument again.

Only until it stops being true.

 

[BryonD]

Hey Nikchick,

Don't take it to seriously. One of the invariable results of excellence is being attacked. Sad but true.

All of you at Green Ronin should be nothing less than completely proud of the line of superb products you have put out (and will).

You deserved all the credit you have received (at the Ennies and elsewhere). That's what really matters.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I must admit that this thread has taken much of the wind out of my sails already, since it seems that our wins this year are going to be held up as examples of a company "unfairly" dominating the awards. . . I'm not ready to be declared "The Man" and reviled for keeping everyone else down.

I don't agree with the sentiment, but I don't think there's any way around it, Nicole. If you produce the best products, you will be among the most popular and best known producers.

The actual vote IS a popularity vote, so I don't think it says anything less about GR in general to admit that past successes will influence the voters in the future. It just means you are on the right track.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I'll say this right now: my goal as a publisher is to produce material worthy of critical acclaim and we set out to make books that are EXCELLENT every time. Not just good, not average, we want to produce EXCELLENT material, every time. I want those gold ENnies! I want to improve the quality of our products so that instead of silver ENnies, we can *earn* the gold.

I don't think anyone would argue that GR products are anything less than excellent. If they weren't excellent, I wouldn't spend my money on them. When you do a class or race book, chances are that every time there are two or three products by other publishers that directly compete with yours. After checking them all out, I usually go with yours.

It's really bumming me out to see Green Ronin brought up in this way, when I still feel like we have so much to achieve. I'm not ready to be declared "The Man" and reviled for keeping everyone else down.

The only reason GR could be viewed as "The man" is because it was the first to release a D20 product, and has followed it up with an aggressive release schedule. This is just a matter of good timing, good products, and (I would assume) good business sense. As I pointed out earlier, I wouldn't be buying your products if I had been dissatisfied with previous purchases or if a competing product looked better. My original comment wasn't meant to be derogatory and I apologize if it was taken that way.

I must admit that this thread has taken much of the wind out of my sails already, since it seems that our wins this year are going to be held up as examples of a company "unfairly" dominating the awards.

There are always bound to be sour grapes over awards, but I don't think you should let this bum you out. No one here is accusing anyone of unfairly dominating the awards. Ultimately the winners are determined by the public. I cast my votes, which is as much as I can do to contribute, and after that the winners are whoever the public voted for. I am so much happier with the results of the Ennies this year than last. Now I'm going to shut up before I put my foot in my mouth again.

 

[Ghostwind]

I had a very long answer typed in, but the database took a vacation and consumed it apparently. Here's an abbreviated version.

I would very much appreciate it if you would elaborate on this. Green Ronin won a gold ENnie for Best D20 game, and we won the Peer Award. In all other cases we came in as runners-up.

I'm using both GR and Monsternomicon to illustrate the point of multiple "wins" (by this I mean gold and silver awards). Monsternomicon took home a win in every category they were nominated for: Best Monster Supplement, Best Graphic Design and Layout, Best Interior Art and Best Cover Art while Freedom City scored with Best Campaign Setting, Best Graphic Design and Layout, Best Interior Art and Best Cover Art (if I remember correctly). This is why I was saying that restricting a single product to a single category forces a publisher to cater to that book's strengths and focus on the category it stands the best chance of being nominated in.

I'll say this right now: my goal as a publisher is to produce material worthy of critical acclaim and we set out to make books that are EXCELLENT every time. Not just good, not average, we want to produce EXCELLENT material, every time. I want those gold ENnies! I want to improve the quality of our products so that instead of silver ENnies, we can *earn* the gold.

And this is a worthy goal to attain to. Your wins with Mutants & Masterminds along with the silver for Best Publisher shows you are on the right track.

I must admit that this thread has taken much of the wind out of my sails already, since it seems that our wins this year are going to be held up as examples of a company "unfairly" dominating the awards. Book of the Righteous spent a full year as the top-rated D20 book on D20reviews.com, and was awarded the silver ENnie! I certainly felt that we earned that award, and I was further motivated to come out with something that people would think is even better so we might get to take home that gold ENnie someday as well.

This thread isn't meant to crucify those who won, but illustrate the need for continued changes in an awards system that is still growing and learning. For two straight years the awards has been dominated by the same names (first Wotc and now GR and Privateer) which indicates a potential problem with either the nomination process or the voting process.

Despite Wulf's disagreeing with me, there were many publishers (prominent ones) at the awards that I spoke with that felt they never had a chance to win after the first few announcements came through. Considering the cost incurred to the publisher to submit a product for consideration (number of copies sent to the judges, shipping, etc.), there are several who will not do it next year unless changes are made. The popularity factor was very evident (again, this is not meant to degrade the winners, only make a point) in the way the awards played out. As a publisher, if you do not feel you have a reasonable shot at being nominated and then have a reasonable shot at winning should you receive a nomination, then why go to the expense of entering at all?

If you look at any awards system in other genres, such as the Academy Awards, there is a tangible benefit to being nominated and/or winning: increased revenue due to movie rentals or people going to the theater to see the movie. With the RPG industry, there is no such benefit (although GR might make a good argument that sales of M&M products at Gen Con were influenced by the ENnies). This is a key reason why larger publishers who aren't necessarily frequent visitors to this community may feel less inclined to participate. To them, it has no meaning.

Let's present a hypothetical idea. Say Decipher comes out with a d20 version of Lord of the Rings. Since they do not frequent these boards or EN World at all, in general, they are already fighting a bit of an uphill battle to not only get nominated but also potentially win. What benefit would an Ennie award provide them? They already have a substantial fan base, just not on EN World. Since the voting is really a popularity contest among EN community members only, why should Decipher feel like it should enter (even if it has a book that is the greatest thing since plastic dice)?

There are changes that need to be made as the award evolves and not all of them are ones that people will want to hear. However, if the ENnies are to ever gain a serious measure of respect among the RPG industry in general, and not a small group of d20 publishers that hang out here, it has to be willing to take the steps needed to earn that respect. This is the real challenge that lies ahead...

 

[whydirt]

I essentially agree with Psion's post above, but I'll reiterate. I think the simplest solution would be to allow WotC to enter the art and production awards as well as any other non-open awards.

I look at the Ennies as being a way to boost up the d20 and OGL community, which will only help WotC in the long run.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I essentially agree with Psion's post above, but I'll reiterate. I think the simplest solution would be to allow WotC to enter the art and production awards as well as any other non-open awards.

I agree with that. It's not as if 3rd party publishers are releasing their ART as open content, either!

Steve-- I guess I can agree with your final paragraph on the ENnies, though in the short term I don't know why a publisher who doesn't "hang out" at EN world would ever have any interest in winning an award from EN world.

Wulf

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'm in no way shape or form a publisher and just a fan with a lot of experience with RPGs and some business background. There were some points from a couple of threads made that I'd like to comment on:

One of the things that I found interesting was that fact that a few select products continually showed up in multiple categories time and time again with some of those products winning multiple awards (Green Ronin and Privateer Press). This is not to say that those products were not deserving of those awards because in some categories they were definitely (in my opinion) the better product. However, there are others where their wins were questionable given the competition.

This statement needs to be clarified a little as it states they were deserving but the competition may have been better. It's one or the other. If it's the other, I think it's important to realize that this is not Peter Adkinson's Award, it's EN Worlds, it's a fan based award. Fans vote on popularity. Very simple concept.

I'm using both GR and Monsternomicon to illustrate the point of multiple "wins" (by this I mean gold and silver awards). Monsternomicon took home a win in every category they were nominated for: Best Monster Supplement, Best Graphic Design and Layout, Best Interior Art and Best Cover Art while Freedom City scored with Best Campaign Setting, Best Graphic Design and Layout, Best Interior Art and Best Cover Art (if I remember correctly). This is why I was saying that restricting a single product to a single category forces a publisher to cater to that book's strengths and focus on the category it stands the best chance of being nominated in.

Interesting point. If Privateer put Monsternomicon in for Best Monster Supplement, what would they put in for Best Graphic Design? Oh wait, they don't have any other d20 products this year so we should punish them by making a product that is top notch in so many ways, fall to the wayside to numerous inferior products. I don't think that's the way to go.

Let's say I'm publisher X. I have okay monster book Y. I see company A putting their product in the monster category. This book is the only book they put out and it's got great interior art, cover art, graphic design and layout. Because it's no longer eligible for those categories, I can take my okay monster book and put it into another category that it really doesn't belong and have sidestepped the competition.

Steve-- I guess I can agree with your final paragraph on the ENnies, though in the short term I don't know why a publisher who doesn't "hang out" at EN world would ever have any interest in winning an award from EN world.

I agree not only 100% with Wulf here, but 200%. As I've noted, this isn't some Gen Con sposored award. Peter's not coughing up the dough for these books. WoTC isn't going, "Thanks for the great work, here's some books and some money for your time." This is fan based material. A d20 Publisher who doesn't spend time here, who doesn't build up his 'following' so to speak, is foolish. Monte, Nicole and others all have their own bulletin boards but they stop by here often.

Having said that, quality counts. The Monsternomicon was held up as a multiple winner and while I own almost all of the miniatures and d20 products, they don't come around here and post too much outside of some brief updates and information. They have innovation, talent and vision. If you're company doesn't have that, you've got other problems than the Ennies.

Another problem with this years awards was the realtively small timeframe where the voting was open. It was hardly sufficient for publishers who do not necessarily frequent these boards or the site to get the word out about their nominated products. The time allotted for voting needs to be longer and sooner next year.

I can see this being a problem to a point. Having said that, many publishers not only used this voting time to hype their products, but also used it as a sale. Publishers were gaining DIRECT benefits from a fan event.

Do publishers who didn't win put on newer products "From the Ennie Nominated Company". Yes they do. Once again, another DIRECT benefit. Whose going to have a 20% off sale for products not nominated during the Ennie period? No one.

Now I think that people are giving the Ennies too much power but maybe I'm completely off here.

I'd like to see the following:

Ennie Mission Statement

Ennie Funding Statement: Whose funding these trips to Indianapolis? Morrus wouldn't have even been there this year if the fans didn't pay for him to go. Publishers incur cost? This whole site is a FAN site.

Ennie Expectations-From the Ennies Staff

Ennie Expectation-From the publishers.

There is a lot of power plays going on over something that's at the root, a simple, "We like your products." The reasons why people like those products is more complex and for publishers to want to put more empahsis on their direct benefits, I think they better start to examine what they want out of the Ennies and I think that the fans should know exactly what the Ennies are and how they're put together.

If worse comes to worse, avoid the whole issue of publishers providing product. Have Gen Con sponsor $400 worth of product for each judge, housing for the judges and passes for the jduges. Have the fans vote on what products they want to be seen. The publishers need to be removed from this equation and the fans need to be heard.

That's my take on this.