[ENnies] WotC on the outs

[Blacksad]

My perspective as a fan.

I would like to see WotC enter all category like all publisher.

Because after Deities&Demigods (and the ELH) I'm not keen anymore on buying their product blindfolded. It means that I'll miss some of their great product which would have given me lots of ideas in favor of specific product from smaller publisher which directly fit my needs. It isn't bad per se, but I do not like the idea of missing a great product.

I think that the rating process would prevent them from winning every entries (just take a look at http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/reviews/ specificaly the reviews for Deities & Demigods or those for the Monsternomicon).

I still want to keep the judge because in a direct fan vote you get weird result (as it used to in the reviews section of ENworld), with unknow book being selected because it has 2 or 3 fans while bigger books get eliminated because they get more bad critics.

I don't know if the result prove it, but I guess that the voting process allowed a good repartition of the scoring of each book (i.e. if you try to have a graphic for each book with the number of vote for each score, they should have the same look with differing location for the peak, or so I hope, only Morrus know for sure.) meaning that each book deserve its award.

I'm not sure that this apply as well to electronic product and agree with Vigilance on that point that free product or product which exist as print product should not enter all electronic category, though it would not be nice to those who provide great product for free, so it needs further discussion.

Though, I do not like the idea of banning print product from entering several category, as with WotC, it means that I could miss THE great product (hey, I already had Monsternomicon, so I guess that I'll buy Freedom City now ).

While I think that the award should focus on D&D/d20, I do not know what should be done of products like Action! by Gold Rush Games, which are OGC. At first I would say keep the typical category open to D&D/d20 products, and add a few OGL category like best game, best supplement, best setting.

Another thing is I don't know how setting book, from d20 line, but aren't d20, fit in the awards (I think that this has happened for the Scarred Land and Diomin) or books like Todd Gamble Cartography without opening the award to all RPG (perhaps requiring that the publisher has produced at least one d20/OGL book?).

Tada! that's all folks!

 

[coyote6]

I'm using both GR and Monsternomicon to illustrate the point of multiple "wins" (by this I mean gold and silver awards). Monsternomicon took home a win in every category they were nominated for: Best Monster Supplement, Best Graphic Design and Layout, Best Interior Art and Best Cover Art while Freedom City scored with Best Campaign Setting, Best Graphic Design and Layout, Best Interior Art and Best Cover Art (if I remember correctly). This is why I was saying that restricting a single product to a single category forces a publisher to cater to that book's strengths and focus on the category it stands the best chance of being nominated in.

But that would mean that (using this year as an example), the Best Art/Layout/etc. awards would go to products that didn't have the best art/layout/etc. Why would Green Ronin or Privateer submit their book for best art, when they have good chances of winning other awards (Best Monster, Best Setting, etc.)? Maybe it's just me -- I guess I think best art awards are less impressive than best supplement awards. But I don't see why lesser art should be rewarded because better art also happens to have better words to go along with it.

 

[Teflon Billy]

But that would mean that (using this year as an example), the Best Art/Layout/etc. awards would go to products that didn't have the best art/layout/etc. Why would Green Ronin or Privateer submit their book for best art, when they have good chances of winning other awards (Best Monster, Best Setting, etc.)? Maybe it's just me -- I guess I think best art awards are less impressive than best supplement awards. But I don't see why lesser art should be rewarded because better art also happens to have better words to go along with it.

I made the sam point back on page 2 (just not as well)

Maybe you will get an answer.

 

[Ghostwind]

The points both Teflon Billy and Coyote raised are valid and illustrate a hole in my thinking. Obviously not every observation or suggestion has an adequate solution. I was commenting on what I perceived to be an uncharacteristic amount of wins by two products that, while good and deserving of awards, were quite predictable in their outcomes after the first couple.

Maybe it's just due to my experience with the industry and its products, but I sat in the back and accurately predicted every outcome save one after the first two awards. This is one reason why I wondered if limiting the products to a single category would help prevent landslide victories such as we've seen. Call it thinking out loud and trying to provoke discussion that results in ways that will better improve the awards.

At no time have I explicitly stated that the awards were broke and the results fixed. No awards system is perfect and even though the Ennies have improved greatly, there is always room for refinement to make it better and more representative of the vast amount of quality products out there. Such is the point of my arguments.

In my opinion, the Ennies should strive to be more than just a fan award based upon a small community (yes, in the bigger picture of gaming, it is a small community) of online gamers who share a common love. It should ultimately become an award that inspires the entire d20 industry (or potentially the RPG industry depending on the future) to go for the gold, so to speak. It should welcome the votes of all gamers and not just those who elect to hang out at EN World. But that's just my opinion and probably not one shared by many others here.

 

[Fiery James]

ENnies

The EN awards have been around for 3 years.
Fiery Dragon has been around for 3 years.

We've received multiple nominations every year, but haven't won yet.

I respect the judges a lot, and it is an honor to be nominated. Doubly so when I look at the products we're up against -- stuff from WotC, Malhavoc, Green Ronin, Privateer, and others.

I was happy with many of the results this year. Some of my picks received silvers rather than golds, but I'm glad they were recognized.

Next year, we are winning our categories. That's all there is to it.

Really, bring on new judges, bigger companies (and most are bigger than us!), huge print runs, or free PDFs.

We're walking out win an ENnie in 2004.

I appreciate the fact that everyone is hoping to make the award process as fair and perfect as possible, and we'll play by whatever rules system you set up. 'Cause next year we're winning.

This year I had a ton of fun seeing friends up on stage and cheering (loudly!) for my picks. There were a lot of funny bits and good times. We had a blast.

Next year we're winning, though.

Bigger doesn't guarantee you'll win (look at XRP). Free doesn't guarantee you'll win (hey, look at FDP!).

Quality counts, though. Mutants & Masterminds is an amazing looking (and playing) book -- thanks to GR and Super Unicorn. I like the design of Monte's site.

I wish that Westwood Barony had been nominated in the Free category (though competition is tough there as well), or at least had a download link in the nominees page. But hey, a lot of people really liked it, and we got nominated, and that's what counts for us.

Until next year, when we're going to win.

So, in conclusion, continue the debate. Figure out the best way to harvest the nominees and develop the categories. Devise a fair voting system and write code that will prevent massive tampering. Continue with your worthy efforts. I look forward to the results, and participating next year.

You know, the year we're going to win.

- James

 

[Nikchick]

I was commenting on what I perceived to be an uncharacteristic amount of wins by two products that, while good and deserving of awards, were quite predictable in their outcomes after the first couple.

Maybe it's just due to my experience with the industry and its products, but I sat in the back and accurately predicted every outcome save one after the first two awards. This is one reason why I wondered if limiting the products to a single category would help prevent landslide victories such as we've seen.

Try as I might, I can't view this as a neutral statement. There's no reason to be concerned about imposing artificial limits on entrants unless the bottom line is that you feel the winners did not deserve their awards. You can't say the products were "good and deserving of awards" on one hand and then worry about the dire consequences of the "predictable outcomes" and "landslide victories" on the other and pretend there's no connection between the two.

When Green Ronin decided to go ahead with Mutants & Masterminds, we agreed that we were going to go all the way and do it right. We decided our mission for the product line was to make it "high end in every regard." High end in EVERY regard: art, graphic design, writing, rules, everything. The fact that our M&M core books were honored in multiple categories tells me that we succeeded in that mission *and* that people recognized and appreciated our commitment.

If it had not been for this year's move to include a runner-up category by presenting Silver ENnies, Green Ronin would have walked away with TWO awards out of 14 nominations, which is exactly what we managed to win last year.


Nicole

 

[Pramas]

Maybe it's just due to my experience with the industry and its products, but I sat in the back and accurately predicted every outcome save one after the first two awards.

You predicted that Unknown Armies and Spaceship Zero would beat the Epic Level Handbook?

You predicted that that Magical Medieval Society would beat Book of the Righteous?

You predicted that Monsternomicon would beat Tome of Horrors?

You predicted that, of the two nominated Necromancer adventures, the big hardback by Gary Gygax (Necropolis) wouldn't even place?

I was frequently surprised by the outcomes myself.

 

[Ghostwind]

You predicted that Unknown Armies and Spaceship Zero would beat the Epic Level Handbook?

You predicted that that Magical Medieval Society would beat Book of the Righteous?

You predicted that Monsternomicon would beat Tome of Horrors?

You predicted that, of the two nominated Necromancer adventures, the big hardback by Gary Gygax (Necropolis) wouldn't even place?

I was frequently surprised by the outcomes myself.

Yep. I missed Unknown Armies and had Spaceship Zero taking the gold. Other than that, there wasn't anything else I didn't miss. No offense, but the age of some products and the overrated hype of others likely influenced voters' opinions. I just wish I was that good with the lottery.

I'm not trying to dis the winners because I truly do believe they are quality products. I am in no way trying to attack them and do not feel that I am. The whole point of my arguments is the trends that I have seen at both this and last year's awards. Is there a problem with something because of the trend? Perhaps. Is it more likely that the winners were just damn good products? That is also likely and quite probably the case. I'm just asking that all things be taken into consideration when looking for ways to make the Ennies even better. That's it. Nothing more and nothing damning about the winners.

 

[Psion]

Fair enough Steve. But it seems to me when you are juggling around aggegate opinions, it is sort of hard to factor out things like trends. Because that is what they are. Even now, some feel that our methods do too much to deemphasize the public's opinion.

I'm all for improving the ENnies. There are many changes we could make, but just as was the case when debating this looking ahead, there are very few "perfect" ways of handling a lot of things.

I have felt like many parts of this year's ENnies have been a bit of a "daring experiment", but all told, it worked out better than I expected. It may not be the best we can hope for, but I think we are headed in the right direction.

Whatever the case, it seems nothing is going to be universally agreed upon by all parties concerned (fans, ennies staff, publishers.) There is always going to be some sort of compromise.

 

[JoeGKushner]

In my opinion, the Ennies should strive to be more than just a fan award based upon a small community (yes, in the bigger picture of gaming, it is a small community) of online gamers who share a common love. It should ultimately become an award that inspires the entire d20 industry (or potentially the RPG industry depending on the future) to go for the gold, so to speak. It should welcome the votes of all gamers and not just those who elect to hang out at EN World. But that's just my opinion and probably not one shared by many others here.

I think that you have some good points and that's one of the reasons I think the Ennies need to be defined. For instance, if Gen Con is going to start using the Ennies as advertising material, then guess what? They should pay. Plain and simple. That would solve the publishers problem for instance and since it's Gen Con Paying and not WotC, there's no pressure to push Wizards products as being winners.

The only huge problem I see though, is without sponsors, who is going to pay for this? Sure, it could be a d20 thing without EN World and might get a little more juice, but really, who playing d20 that uses the internet, doesn't use En World in some form or another? I can't imagine it's that large a %. I'd love to see some numbers though.

Right now the Ennies are a fan award. A great one that sets the standards in a lot of ways but if it needs to move beyond that, there has to be some method of paying for those steps. It's not like publishers are sending money and books to sponsor the event. It's not like the people doing the judging are getting paid for their time and effort. Trust me, as much as I enjoy Oathbound, if I didn't read it for fun and to use, that would be a lot of work. It's a huge book, much longer to read that the time in hours I'd make just working for example.

I do hope that these other publishers you've mentioned several times speak up. Without their feedback, they don't count. Just like voting or having issues with insurance, Gen Con or any other aspect of life. If you don't speak up, the telepathic mod will not automatically kick in.