Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Technik4]

Sure, it is powerful when your opponent is surrounded by plants...but that is relatively rare.

The rarity of spell use means the spell can be more powerful?

I shall invent a 1st level spell that only works on tuesdays, but does 100 hp of damage, no save.

Your counterargument (if it could be called one) is getting stale.

Entangle is a flavorful spell for the druid that has been in d&d for a long time. It doesn't actually *do* damage itself, it is a disabling effect. Yet Nail seems to continually counter with conditional high-damaging 1st levels spells that should be made, with no flavor association, because of Entangle.

Nail, just nerf the radius or scale the DCs if its that big of a deal. But if people want to play RAW, it doesn't mean they would also like to play with Blue Moon Fireballs or Tuesday Touch of Deaths. Can you see the difference? At least suggest a 1st level Wednesday Web spell or something

 

[Mistwell]

The rarity of spell use means the spell can be more powerful?

Excellent.

I shall invent a 1st level spell that only works on tuesdays, but does 100 hp of damage, no save.


...and then, I shall only prepare it on Tuesdays.

Your sarcasm aside, yes rarity of utility is a big factor in determining power of a spell. Knock is extremely powerful when facing a door you cannot open with your rogue. Feather fall is extremely powerful when you find yourself suddenly falling. Endure Elements is very powerful when you suddenly find yourself in an snow storm. But none of those spells is considered powerful in general, because of the rarity of it's utility. Turning undead is extremely powerful if playing in a game with only undead as opponents, but most folks do not consider turning to be overpowered on it's own. And the PHB is filled with spells and abilities with a very narrow application but very powerful effect when that narrow application happens to come up.

 

[frankthedm]

The narrow application might reasonably buy the spell one of these;

The high DC's for escape artist and Str Checks
Colossal+ area
Still affects those who make thier save
Long range
Duration long enough a minimum level scroll will last the whole combat

Not all of them.

In a "Get to the dungeon ASAP" style game, entangle might be strong though not overwhelming, but if the game has important battles in the field, I recommend nerfing the hell out of entangle.

 

[Mistwell]

The narrow application might reasoanbly buy the spell one of these;

The high DC's for escape artist and Str Checks
Colossal+ area
Still affects those who make thier save

Not all of them.

In a "Get to the dungeon ASAP" style game, entangle might be strong though not overwhelming, but if the game has important battles in the field, I reccomend nerfing the hell out of entangle.

In the "Get to the dungeon ASAP" how would it be "strong"?

 

[frankthedm]

In the "Get to the dungeon ASAP" how would it be "strong"?

It still devastates random encounters of non flying variety in the field. In a 'teleport to the dungeon" game, it then only devastates foes in "Fungal caverns"

Long range and a duration that lets a scroll of it last the typical combat is darn good too.

 

[Mistwell]

It still devastates random encounters of non flying variety in the field.

But that would be pretty rare. How is it strong to have a spell that devastates extremely few encounters in your kind of game? I mean, is golemstrike overpowered in your opinion? Undead turning? That spell that makes you immune to level drain? Endure elements? Feather Fall (a spell that literally can prevent dozens of dice of damage)?

Being able to imagine a situation where the spell entangle will be strong is not the same as a spell being in general strong. If it rarely comes up, it's not strong, even if it is very effective in the narrow situations where it really shines.

 

[irdeggman]

Plus the spell kills charging in 80' whether you make the save or not due to your movement being reduced. That alone makes it a touch too good IMHO.

So does grease (cancel charging - place it in the space right in front of the character being "protected"), so that shouldn't be a factor. Halting a charge is a defensive condition.

Grease forces a balance check (which is a skill affected by Dex penalties like from encumbrance and armor). In fact grease cast on a weapon not yet drawn is really nasty. A reflex save to avoid the effect (of dropping the weapon) each round the spell is in effect.

Are we saying that a "defensive" spell being more powerful is out of balance?

If so then mage armor falls into that one too - +4 to AC for 1 hr/level - much longer duration and at lower levels has a much greater impact.

 

[Nail]

And the PHB is filled with spells and abilities with a very narrow application but very powerful effect when that narrow application happens to come up.

Two questions:
What is the level and the combat utility of the Knock spell?

Should the number of encounters you have outside determine the level of a spell?

 

[Nail]

So does grease ....

What is the AoE of Grease? What is the AoE of Entangle?

 

[Mistwell]

Two questions:
What is the level and the combat utility of the Knock spell?

Should the number of encounters you have outside determine the level of a spell?

Combat utility is meaningless. That is not the measure of power in a role playing game, just a war game.

As for level, I can find (and did) a bunch of spells of the same level if that is the game you want to play. I was offerring examples of spells which are high power in a narrow group of situations, which you knew.

You think entangle is overpowered, despite it being effective almost exclusively in a wilderness environment. So explain to me why you don't think endure elements is overpowered, give how super powerful it is in a snow storm environment. I mean if the commonality of the environment is not a factor, then why not apply that criteria to all spells with great utility in a limited number of environments?