Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Jhulae]

There are some people who think a Tanglefoot bag is equivalent to a 4th level spell, so by that reasoning, Entangle must be equivalent to an 8th or 9th level spell.

As for me, I think it's probably closer to a 2nd level spell, but definitely more powerful than a 1st.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Let me put it this way: My Druid would trade Entangle for Sleep in a heartbeat.

I can see how this might be a problem spell in some specific campaigns, but in more typical campaigns I am having trouble seeing how this spell is actually any better than Sleep overall.

Bread and butter enemies in the wilderness have either good Reflex saves (Animals & Magical Beasts) or some competence with ranged attacks (Humanoids).

Sleep hits the opponents with the most common weakness (Will) and makes them helpless. Entangle attack a strength (Reflex) or makes them harder to kill (an Entangled enemy archer is an archer that has some protection from my meatshields).

The big difference is at higher level play Entangle can sometimes still be useful. But at those levels the precise spell slot of a low level spell is less significant than the cost of an Action. Does anyone really care whether the Arch Lich just cast a 2nd level spell or a 1st level spell?

 

[irdeggman]

Honestly, given the opportunity, I think my character would use the smaller area more often than the current version. I know that doesn't seem logical, but really the area is TOO big, and I always seem to catch my allies in the spread, or mess up a charging or melee tactic that someone was planning on using, or allow for opponents to escape.

And this is an important thing to remember.

It also affects allies and prevents them from acting and charging too.

I can't help but think that too many people took at the pure numbers (at first glance) to see if something is too powerful without looking at it from more perspectives to actually see if it is "balanced".

Examples of things that fall into this category:

Warlocks (how many people have gone with "they are far too powerful" without really looking at the restrictions they have?)

Soulknife (the opposite end. How many people have gone through the argument that they are too weak without looking at what they can do well and the niche they can fill).

Bards (another one that people are split on whether or not they are too weak or not)

Spells (far too many to mention, including entangle and magic missile)

Prestige classes (just about every week or so someone brings up one they think is out of whack - how long was the argument over whether or not the Mystic Theurge was too powerful going on?)

Psion versus spellcaster (again many, many people have gone with the psion being too powerful when compared to a sorcerer or wizard).

etc., etc., . . . .

 

[Darklone]

Sleep hits the opponents with the most common weakness (Will) and makes them helpless. Entangle attack a strength (Reflex) or makes them harder to kill (an Entangled enemy archer is an archer that has some protection from my meatshields).

The best thing about an entangled enemy archer is his penalty to Dex.

You're right, as posted above my group used this spell extensively: To get away. In this regard, I don't think the spell is too strong.

 

[Felon]

Entangle is an encounter-ruining spell that robs many encounters of any tactical challenge. A creature with a speed of 30 feet is reduced to 3 squares of movement to exit the spel's areas. So with a 40-foot spread, you have to be within 2 squares of its border. It can easily trap a whole cadre of humanoids. And the Strength check and Escape Artist DC are flat-out ridiculous for a 1st-level spell.

Damned if you save, damned if you don't. I don't know why it's so, but for some reason the designers wanted "terrain control" spells to be really effective--entangle, web, spike stones, spike growth). They are basically "rocks without paper".

 

[Felon]

It's good, but not too powerful due to it being a very situational spell. It is not going to be very effective in dungeons, deserts, on the sea, and in urban areas.

This flawed notion of balance is pretty common, but flawed nonetheless.

Lopsided is not the same thing as balanced. Just because entangle is of no use in certain situations hardly makes it acceptable for it to be over-the-top in others--especially if it's a situation that can usually be anticipated.

 

[Nail]

I can't help but think that too many people took at the pure numbers (at first glance) to see if something is too powerful without looking at it from more perspectives to actually see if it is "balanced". .

That's rather presumptive.

And false, besides.

I've seen it in play many times. I've used it in play many times. I've used it as a DM. I've used it as a player. I've seen many different groups of gamers use it......

Etc.

This isn't some twinked-out PrC build that's raved about on an Optimization Board. This is just one spell...a core spell....a very common Druid spell.

Let me put it this way: My Druid would trade Entangle for Sleep in a heartbeat.

Huh.

Sleep takes 1 round to cast. Sleep only affects 4 HD of creatures, and they have to be closely spaced to boot. Sleep is useless against plants, undead, constructs, elementals, dragons.....

The sleep spell is often called the "detect HD" spell. There's a reason for that.

What level is your druid that a spell that affects only 4 HD would be useful???

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Huh.

Sleep takes 1 round to cast. Sleep only affects 4 HD of creatures, and they have to be closely spaced to boot. Sleep is useless against plants, undead, constructs, elementals, dragons.....

The sleep spell is often called the "detect HD" spell. There's a reason for that.

What level is your druid that a spell that affects only 4 HD would be useful???

My Druid found exactly 3 opportunities to cast this spell from levels 2 to 5. In each instance Sleep would have worked out better.

If I had Sleep instead, I am sure I would have found another 6-8 opportunities to cast it usefully.

So the data says Sleep would have been a better spell.

I am pretty sure this experience is somewhere within the thick part of the bell curve, at least a stone's throw from "average".

I will say that I personally do not like how the DC checks are set up for both Entangle and Web. I would like to this both of these spells, plus Wall of Thorns tweaked. Nonetheless I do not find this spell to be overpowered within the overall context of D&D spells as a whole.

Eventually one hits the point where it is not that big a deal whether the spell is 0th or 1st or 2nd level. So even if the spell is surprisingly effective for a 1st level spell when you are 10+th level, stop whining 'cuz it could have been a Web or a Wall of Thorns or a Flamestrike. It may be surprisingly useful for a 1st level spell at 19th level play, but I do not care.

 

[Nail]

If I had Sleep instead, I am sure I would have found another 6-8 opportunities to cast it usefully.

6-8 times where you have time to cast a 1 round spell, the bad guys are tightly grouped, and the sum of opponents HD is less than 4 HD, eh?

Those are some challenging encounters......

 

[Felon]

I'm glad irdeggman threw out sleep for comparison. Comparing the two shows how truly sick entangle is, and illuminates some of the thinking of the desing team. Sleep renders targets helpless, so it needs to be reined in, while a spell that "merely" immobilizes and entangles targets can be given all kinds of advantages in terms of area, resistability, secondary effects you have to endure even if you save successfully, etc.

A sorcerer who picks up sleep would be looking to swap it out ASAP. Its scalability is pretty sorry. OTOH, entangle will always be wonderful. Strength checks aren't level-impacted, and the Escape Artist check is high enough to be a challenge to even characters with double-digit levels (few targets have Escape Artist ranks in the first place, so it's not really that level-impacted either).

Spell resistance doesn't help, immunities against entanglement are uncommon at best (flight is the most obvious "immunity", but most creatures are earthbound even at higher levels). Really, it's a 1st-level spell to hang on to.

As to comparing entangle to magic missile, I think a spell that inflicts a relatively low amount of damage against a single target (or outright pitiful damage against mulitple targets) is not as useful as a spell that devastates the formation of large groups opponents.