Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Pielorinho]

Moderator's Notes
Folks, if your point cannot be made without describing how other posters are delusional, rotten players, illogical, or hopelessly biased, then your point is not one that can be made on this board. If your point can be made without the insults, then please do so.

There's a sticky at the top of the rules forum. I don't want to have to be a butthead about enforcing it; if you've forgotten what it says, please go reread it.

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The shortcomings of the sleep spell were pretty clearly laid-out to prove that a conclusion was not being jumped to. You are making a personal attack to rebutt without providng anything substantial to back up your position.

I must have been confused by "the sum of opponents HD is less than 4 HD". Does not seem to be written in my copy of the PHB that it is only possible to use Sleep in such encounters. Silly me, I read this as an important part of a one sentence conclusion. Perhaps you can help me read this correctly?

But since you were polite I will fill out a couple counterpoints for you:
(1) A player of a Druid might have some skill with casting 1 round spells, such that this is not considered a particular burden, even if it is a downside.
(2) It should be obvious that a spell that generates a Helpless state might be more useful in some encounters than another spell that can potentially effect many more opponents but is otherwise weaker, if I happen to be satisfied with dealing with a subset of the opposition with my Action.
(3) The requirement to have plants around is a very big factor in the frequency a spell could be used in most campaigns.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

8 HILL GIANTS (EL 13)
Entangle is cast. Ref save +3 means half succeed and half fail. As the lucky four break formation and scramble out of the shrubbery they are hopefully wise enough to know how grateful they should be that all the entangle did was cost them their entire round.

The not-so-lucky four start making STR checks and two break free. Next round, one of those two actually makes his Ref save and can make a run for it. For all following rounds, the norm will be that one makes the STR check, and then has a 50/50 chance of making his Ref save on the following round. Pity not only them, but also the DM who has to make all of these rolls that are largely pointless.

I wish I got to fight giants like that. The giants I fight always carry boulders and know how to use them.

Putting a creature with a pretty good ranged attack into an Entangle zone where they are an inconvenient target to melee is often doing that creature a favor.

Once you get past low levels, I would expect humanoids and other intelligent creatures to have specific tactics for engaging in (or avoiding) ranged combat. Giants come ready made for this fight. Ogres could be carrying a few sized appropriate javelins.

 

[Nail]

I wish I got to fight giants like that. The giants I fight always carry boulders and know how to use them.

Putting a creature with a pretty good ranged attack into an Entangle zone where they are an inconvenient target to melee is often doing that creature a favor.

You are vastly overstating the capabilities of a ranged attack from a Hill Giant. Vastly.


For a Hill Giant, their ranged attacks (with boulders) are: rock +8 ranged (2d6+7)

If they are entangled, that turns into: rock +4 ranged (2d6+7)

That, for a CR 7 enemy, is completely PATHETIC. A party (APL 7) could easily take that once/round attack, and give back way more than they take. An entangled Hill Giant is a neutered Hill Giant, plain and simple.

(BTW: What does the Sleep spell do to a Hill Giant? Can it affect 8 of them like Entangle can? )

Again: The Entangle spell is a great 1st level spell, far better than any other. It has the range (Long), AoE (40' r.), duration (1 min/level), and checks (DC 20) of a much higher level spell. We could argue about how much higher it should be (compare to any other core spell of any other class), but it certainly qualifies for the title of this thread:

"A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell"

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have seen a single low level spell (Grease) neuter a Cloud Giant by causing him to drop his weapon just as he waded into the thick of combat. So I, for one, would not get my panties in a bunch over the fact that such things can and do happen.

I do not find the likelihood that once or twice in your PC's adventuring career an encounter that "should" have been very difficult happens to be quite easy due to a specific low level spell. Such events happen. With a Wizard it might be Grease, Minor Image, Charm Person, and at higher levels a Web or a lucky Glitterdust that does the deed. For the Druid we have Entangle.

There is a more general philosophical question of whether a spell that has significant limitations on when it can be used should (or should not) be potentially more effective than other spells under those special conditions.

The Druid spell list suffers from numerous spells that are generally too ineffective to prepare -- they are powerful in very limited and rare scenarios. To make them "average" in power makes them outright pathetic in most campaigns.

As I have already stated in both this thread and previous similar threads, I can easily imagine that Entangle as written would be a problem spell in some specific campaigns. I am extremely skeptical whether this is a common or even an uncommon issue. But if you campaign really has lots and lots of wilderness encounters, then by all means do amend the spell.

As for Sleep vs. Entangle...

The last few times I fought giants, Sleep would have had more value than Entangle. Sleep at least could theorectically be used against the occasionally orc/ogre servant that was unfortunate enough to show up, even if that would have been silly to bother doing so. Entangle would have had precisely zero value in the stone or ice caves.

The last few times my druid was wishing he had some kind of AoE spell handy, he was fighting 33 goblins on their home turf. I did not have trouble identifying potential targets for Sleep. Once again, Entangle would have had precisely zero value.

As for the 8 Hill Giants, it strikes me as a more than a little contrived as written. If the point of this scenario is that Entangle can potentially be very effective, then I will concede that point. If the point of the scenario is how amazingly powerful a low level spell is in high-level encounters, then one should play the creatures as if they were a high-level encounter with the modicum of awareness of how vulnerable they are to AoE spells. Giants have a pretty good movement rate and a pretty good ranged attack, so there is no great incentive to bunch up. Even with that impressive AoE, I would be pleasantly surprised to be able to catch more 4 of 8 in Entangle.

 

[Nail]

I have seen a single low level spell (Grease) neuter a Cloud Giant by causing him to drop his weapon just as he waded into the thick of combat.

A 1st level spell affected one opponent. The range was close, the AoE was just his weapon, the duration was 1 rd/level, and the spell did not prevent the giant from moving or attacking with another weapon.

Where were the giant's boulders, which you brought up a while ago? Surely those would have been sufficient?

If the point of the scenario is how amazingly powerful a low level spell is in high-level encounters, then one should play the creatures as if they were a high-level encounter with the modicum of awareness of how vulnerable they are to AoE spells.

Name one other 1st level spell that has the range, AoE, and power of Entangle. Then describe how effective it is (vs Entangle) at higher levels.

 

[frankthedm]

Cutting ground speed by half in a huge area at huge range without save makes it more than scroll-worthy for those who don't feel it is worth preparing.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A 1st level spell affected one opponent. The range was close, the AoE was just his weapon, the duration was 1 rd/level, and the spell did not prevent the giant from moving or attacking with another weapon.

While not helpless, his offensive potential dropped ~50% and he had to spend a MEA to retrieve some other weapon to boot. This Cloud Giant had but one magic two-handed huge warhammer. The combination of a 2-handed weapon with the 1 1/2 Str boost plus the pumped up Power Attack on top of Great Cleave made him a real threat -- he had a good chance on dropping 2 PCs per round.

Name one other 1st level spell that has the range, AoE, and power of Entangle. Then describe how effective it is (vs Entangle) at higher levels.

I have already named spells that are as powerful at higher levels and tend to be much easier to use.

Your benchmarks when used dogmatically are simply silly. If I had a 1st level Dominate Monster spell, would you argue "Oh but that only affects 1 creature and it has ranged Close, so it is not as good as Entangle"? Of course not.

Specialized spells tend to be powerful. Antiplant Shell is an absolutely kick ass spell of 4th(!) level...against plants. Oooooohhh....4th level!!! But this is a niche spell, so there is no point in whining about it being too potent.

Likewise, Entangle is rated a specialized spell in the context of vanilla D&D. That could easily be a poor design choice for your campaign. And perhaps it is even a poor choice for D&D campaigns in general. But that is for you to establish through argumetns based on evidence and/or experience. My personal experience and the RAW say otherwise.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Odd question..how many DMs require there to be at least light undergrowth within 5' for Entangle to be 'effective'? Seems to me people get all wrapped up in how powerful this spell is without considering the exact restrictions it has. The available vegitation has to be able to 'twist and wrap' around at least part of the targets and the only RAW method of determining if there is enough is to look at terrain features, which leads us to 'light undergrowth'...

Light Forests have a 50% coverage with light undergrowth and as such using this requirement an Entangle would cover the entire area of effect.

Outside of light forests you may have around 25% of coverage with light undergrowth meaning only half the area of effect... or less, and provide characters within the area of effect someplace to move to for safety.

This combined with granting an appropriate size bonus to the Str check makes Entangle a perfectly appropriate spell, negating all the complaints of 'overpowered' found upthread...and since the spell description states "Note: The DM may alter the effects of the spell somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling plants." this restriction is perfectly within the realm of 'RAW'

Of course, I also think is the 'nature of the entangling plants' are vines with sharp poisenous thorns, there could be a lethal damage and/or poison potential

And I also think there should be a series of spells built on Entangle that actually create the light underbrush as well...but thats for another thread {and forum}

 

[Mistwell]

And I also think there should be a series of spells built on Entangle that actually create the light underbrush as well...but thats for another thread {and forum}

Quall's Feather Token: Tree