Entangle and Web - What have you done to them?

[Liquidsabre]

I'm looking at altering these two lovely spells somewhat to reduce lethality but maintain the power level for these spells for their level and for their relatively confiend conditions of their use (one needs living plants, the other needs an enclosed space of some kind - two walls, etc.).

A general call to see what other folk might have done to these spells. Since ability checks such as Strength checks don't scale with levels we se these spells being useful well beyond where most low level spells lose their utility in combat in the higher levels, though the saving throw certainly scales.

 

[S'mon]

Web - I'm going back to 1e/2e where if you set light the web it all burns away in 1 round, not 'per 5' square', everyone takes 2d4 dmg. This greatly reduces its ability to hold medium to high-level enemy NPCs in place, and gets rid of the webbed goblins nice & fast.

 

[S'mon]

I haven't seen Entangle being overpowered in most games, in a wilderness based game I saw a GM bump it to 2nd level which is prob fair.

 

[Cyberzombie]

I generally see enemies of any sort of danger level just wade through either spell. I suppose if you use them on wizards they could work, but the body guards would just keep coming...

 

[Jdvn1]

I changed the DCs of the spells (for break and such) to the spell DC. I think a 1st level spell that requires a DC 20 check is pretty crazy. I think it's more consistent this way.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I changed the DCs of the spells (for break and such) to the spell DC. I think a 1st level spell that requires a DC 20 check is pretty crazy. I think it's more consistent this way.

That is the approach that I'm going to take in the future.

nb as a player in my last adventure my monk with 18Str was webbed - he successfully made his reflex save by loads BUT still had to make a DC15 str check (50% chance each round) to move 5ft through the webs. And he's entangled. Way to go for a spell that you save against and it STILL hoses you. (oh yes, If I'd managed to roll 16+ on my d20 I would have moved 10 whole feet that round. From ground zero in a web spell I moved an average of 3.75ft per round. With less than an 18 Str I'd have been completely hosed.

 

[robberbaron]

As the DM in Plain Sailing's example, I am thinking about changing Web to make it easier for strong characters to move through it. I don't intend to make major changes, perhaps lower the Break Free and Move Through DCs by 5 so even an average character should be able to move 5' per round.

I also like the "set fire to it and it all burns away" idea, but will have to think about that some more. Maybe it you set fire to the web it spreads to all adjacent squares in each round, starting with a 5' square and accelerating across the web. Like a real fire might.

Don't underestimate the value of the cover you get if you are stuck in a web. OK, doesn't help much if there are a load of Hobgoblins shooting Fire Arrows at you (thanks, PS).

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't underestimate the value of the cover you get if you are stuck in a web. OK, doesn't help much if there are a load of Hobgoblins shooting Fire Arrows at you (thanks, PS).

Oh, I was young and naive

Also, that was back in 3.0e when I think it gave concealment, whereas now it gives cover. Plus fire arrows was a lot nastier in those days too. Plus, er, *getting* webbed gives one a greater appreciation of the problems!

I wonder if webs could be balanced by doing something like

1) can be cast anywhere that there is a flat surface (doesn't have to be two opposed surfaces, could be used anywhere). This makes it usable in more circumstances.

2) Str DC to free oneself if entrapped = spell DC.

3) Str check to move through webs = DC10 and for every 5 pts or part thereof you succeed you move 5ft. Large or small creatures gain +/- 4 per size category on this check.

This would make the spell usable in more situations, but easier to break out of and easier to make some progress through, especially if you are very big and strong.

Cheeres

 

[S'mon]

nb as a player in my last adventure my monk with 18Str was webbed - he successfully made his reflex save by loads BUT still had to make a DC15 str check (50% chance each round) to move 5ft through the webs. And he's entangled. Way to go for a spell that you save against and it STILL hoses you. (oh yes, If I'd managed to roll 16+ on my d20 I would have moved 10 whole feet that round. From ground zero in a web spell I moved an average of 3.75ft per round. With less than an 18 Str I'd have been completely hosed.

Similar experience here - my STR 16 Fighter was Webbed in a stairwell, I decided to burn the webs off me (I was Ironborn in a Midnight game) which took 1 round, then I had to burn through the webs at 5'/round or make a DC 15 strength check. I chose the burning, which of course still took ages and result was the group was easily defeated by the bad guys.

 

[robberbaron]

1) can be cast anywhere that there is a flat surface (doesn't have to be two opposed surfaces, could be used anywhere). This makes it usable in more circumstances.

2) Str DC to free oneself if entrapped = spell DC.

1) that is the way it works in ToEE - The PC Game. Dunno if I'd change it, but it's worth thought.

2) wouldn't have helped, in our instance, as the spell DC was 19. OK, that's 1 lower.

I'll think about all this before I lob another web at you.