Entangle needs nerfing...

[Ogrork the Mighty]

This spell is way out of line for a 1st-lvl spell. DC 20 to break free as a full-round action, thus guaranteeing the need for at least one additional save?!? Saves every round?!? Huge area of effect?!? Entire-battle duration?!? No rules for hacking your way through?!? No rules for damaging the terrain?!?

If there's a spell that needs nerfing in 4E, this is it. Yeah, yeah, you can fly around it or whatever, but unless you're built around anti-entangling, this spell's gunna cause you more grief than almost any other 1st-lvl spell out there. At the very least there should be cumulative bonuses on the Str/EA checks to get out and the checks should be standard actions instead of full.

And no, I didn't have this spell cast on me. I cast it on the party...

 

[CM]

<Houserule Follows>

Entangle:

The Strength check or Escape Artist DC for escaping an entangle spell is based on the type of plants in the area when the spell is cast. In a heavy jungle or swamp with thick undergrowth, the DC is 20. In an average forest with some light undergrowth or on open grasslands, the DC is 15. In rocky areas or on the floor of an old-growth forest (with little ground cover), the DC is 10. The spell fails on areas of bare dirt or stone.

 

[ARandomGod]

Yea, that's a powerful spell alright. It'll affect even pretty high level parties. In fact, as a GM I'm saving it for one special night when the PC's turn 15 or so (so that they could actually potentially fly), and they go after the BBEG that's they released (accidentally of course) at first level.

That's right, ALL the terrain around his stronghold.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

This spell is way out of line for a 1st-lvl spell. DC 20 to break free as a full-round action, thus guaranteeing the need for at least one additional save?!? Saves every round?!? Huge area of effect?!? Entire-battle duration?!? No rules for hacking your way through?!? No rules for damaging the terrain?!?

So, first off it'd help if you get things correct. It's a full round action at DC 20 to break free and move half your speed. That's assuming you failed the initial save. If you made the initial save you don't have to save again until the casters next turn, so you get a turn of moving out of the area. Practically anybody can get out with a turns movement. Even breaking free you've got a good chance of clearing the area unless it was cast to screw you specifically (or you don't spread out the party at all.)

It only works outside where suitable plant life is present. It isn't just a 1st level spell, it's a 1st level druid spell, within their area of speciality. You shouldn't want to engage a druid in the woods. This point is dulled somewhat if you use alot of splat books which seem to believe that druids should be able to do anything, anywhere.

Finally...so what? Some characters should just suck it up and attempt to tough it out and deal with not being able to move. It's not a happy choice but sometimes the bow shots with a -4 are much better than spending forever attempting to escape.

 

[ForceUser]

This spell is way out of line for a 1st-lvl spell.

I agree. My buddy house-ruled it to a 2nd-level spell in his campaign; in my campaign, it's still 1st-level, but the break DC is 15, and the radius is only 20'.

 

[Thanee]

The easiest limit is to only have it work where plants are present, which are sufficiently large to actually work (i.e. one foot high grass at least or something like that), since the spell only animates them and does not conjure them.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Krelios]

So, first off it'd help if you get things correct. It's a full round action at DC 20 to break free and move half your speed. That's assuming you failed the initial save. If you made the initial save you don't have to save again until the casters next turn, so you get a turn of moving out of the area. Practically anybody can get out with a turns movement. Even breaking free you've got a good chance of clearing the area unless it was cast to screw you specifically (or you don't spread out the party at all.)

It only works outside where suitable plant life is present. It isn't just a 1st level spell, it's a 1st level druid spell, within their area of speciality. You shouldn't want to engage a druid in the woods. This point is dulled somewhat if you use alot of splat books which seem to believe that druids should be able to do anything, anywhere.

Finally...so what? Some characters should just suck it up and attempt to tough it out and deal with not being able to move. It's not a happy choice but sometimes the bow shots with a -4 are much better than spending forever attempting to escape.

This is exactly what I was going to say. The only thing I'll add is that you can still fire ranged weapons while entangled, albeit at a penalty. So the high Reflex people will be out the first round and the high Strength/Escape Artist people will be out the next. Who's left? Generally spellcasters who aren't going to be particularly hampered by the spell as they can still cast. Otherwise, grab a bow and kill the druid or ranger who cast it.

 

[diaglo]

The easiest limit is to only have it work where plants are present, which are sufficiently large to actually work (i.e. one foot high grass at least or something like that), since the spell only animates them and does not conjure them.

Bye
Thanee

nor does it give them tendrils. nor make them grow. nor a bunch of other things that people tend to let the plants do.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Practically anybody can get out with a turns movement. Even breaking free you've got a good chance of clearing the area unless it was cast to screw you specifically (or you don't spread out the party at all.)

Anyone caught within the central 20ft radius can't get out in a single half move. Anyone within the central 30ft radius needs a medium speed to get out (so character in heavy armor are stuck). So, for the most part, everyone affected by this spell will spend an entire round's worth of actions just trying to get out, with at least half the people spending two rounds. Since I personally think that most parties will not spread out further than a 20ft radius, this means that this spell will cause the entire party to waste 1 or 2 rounds of actions trying to escape, with no SR applicable and assuming all saves are made. That alone should make the spell higher level.

It only works outside where suitable plant life is present. It isn't just a 1st level spell, it's a 1st level druid spell, within their area of speciality. You shouldn't want to engage a druid in the woods. This point is dulled somewhat if you use alot of splat books which seem to believe that druids should be able to do anything, anywhere.

Your anger towards splatbooks does not help your case on entangle. Btw, it's also a 1st level ranger spell and Plant domain cleric spell.

Finally...so what? Some characters should just suck it up and attempt to tough it out and deal with not being able to move. It's not a happy choice but sometimes the bow shots with a -4 are much better than spending forever attempting to escape.

So what? The OP feels it is overpowered, as do many others. I did and houseruled it much like CM and ForceUser and the characters still use it. You even say 'spend forever', so how can you say that and not feel it's slightly overpowered?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Overpowered.. if you let it be.

To help clarify, here is some of the text of the spell

Entangle
Note: The effects of the spell may be altered somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling plants.

Okay, so we have a 40' spread zone in which plants entwine and entangle creatures *within thier reach*. Addtionally, all movement in the area is at half speed. You can avoid these effects by either a REF save vs the spell or use a full round action to break free of entanglement and move.

The RAW states the given terrain changes the effects of the spell. CM's houserule is quite viable. You want to nerf this spell? Then use it as written and put some forethought into the terrain the encounter occurs in. The plants have to be able to reach the characters, and as noted upthread, there is no alteration of the plants.

You can even have 'safe zones' within the spells area. The actual area listed is "Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread". Imagine an encounter on a wide roadway surrounded by majestic trees. The roadsides would be hazardous, with branches lashing out and the occasional vine snapping here and there, but the center of the road could be out of the dangerous area.

As to damaging terrain, there are some rules. As the spell requires plants to be available, destroying the available plants will negate the effects of the spell. If I were to run into this, I would estimate a hardness/hitpoint rating for the plants holding a character and allow slashing weapons to destroy the entangling plants in that square. Each square could be treated as one Animate Plant, without intelligence or additional movement ability, for AC, HPs, and hardness. Some of these may have reach, and still cause problems farther from thier actual location. Even cause problems for those 'safely' flying over

In closing, Entangle is a pain the butt spell when you are not prepared for it, and you take the 'easy' out of adding that the spell creates/enhances plants to entangle the opponents.
Its a good spell, as you can slow down your opponents, but it not overpowered. In most encounters, the spell will be pointless as the available plant life will not be present.

Against higher level parties, the REF save should be made most of the time, and if you are wading through light underbrush already, your movement rate is already halved!

It would have been nice for WOTC to formalize the spell a bit more, but stating that it should be adjucated by the DM on a case by case basis is a nice touch.